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If God Only Gives You What He Knows You Can Handle...
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...why do some people commit suicide? Can anyone who believes this explain, as surely it can't be true?
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There are insects whose primary function is to bore the eyes out of children.
I am happy to accept that this is simply a horrible freak of nature, and grateful that I am not a Christian, obliged to find a reason why my loving forgiving God allows this to happen.
There is no God - people kill themselves to kill the pain they are suffering.
I am happy to accept that this is simply a horrible freak of nature, and grateful that I am not a Christian, obliged to find a reason why my loving forgiving God allows this to happen.
There is no God - people kill themselves to kill the pain they are suffering.
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As I understand it, the theological response is that God gave man freewill, and although a loving God has a plan for each of us, that God also gave us the freedom to make choices.
Just as Adam and Eve had the freedom to commit the original Sin in the Garden of Eden, we also have freedom to make our own choices against the will of God
If one dedicates one's life to God, then one trusts in the ultimate benevolence of God and will continue to struggle against the trials and pain that the loving God has assigned to us, all the time rejoicing that one's God knows better then we mere mortals. Further, the believer is confident that he/she continues to carry out God's will, through their suffering here on earth. They know their dedication will surely be rewarded in Heaven.
Those who choose not to so dedicate their lives to such a loving, benevolent God have the freedom of choice to end their lives.
Within the Catholic Church, suicide is seen as a mortal sin and will commit the sinner to an eternity in purgatory, or even Hell.
Other church orthodoxies take a slightly softer lines on this.
For atheists, it is not a problem - if it seems that life is so painful, then there is the choice to end that life and end the suffering.
As to worms that eat their way into a human eyeball, that, also is part of God's will for the world. Who (apart from the loving, benevolent God) is to say that the child will not discover great things through their blindness, or that the worm will reproduce and go on to do good into the future?
The point is that good, rational and entirely justifiable questions such as these are answered by the faithful with some variant of:
"Trust in God. He truly knows what is best for you and for everyone else on earth. It is not our place to question why. Just believe, have faith and you will be rewarded in Heaven"
As I said, I only repeat the theology as I understand it.
Just as Adam and Eve had the freedom to commit the original Sin in the Garden of Eden, we also have freedom to make our own choices against the will of God
If one dedicates one's life to God, then one trusts in the ultimate benevolence of God and will continue to struggle against the trials and pain that the loving God has assigned to us, all the time rejoicing that one's God knows better then we mere mortals. Further, the believer is confident that he/she continues to carry out God's will, through their suffering here on earth. They know their dedication will surely be rewarded in Heaven.
Those who choose not to so dedicate their lives to such a loving, benevolent God have the freedom of choice to end their lives.
Within the Catholic Church, suicide is seen as a mortal sin and will commit the sinner to an eternity in purgatory, or even Hell.
Other church orthodoxies take a slightly softer lines on this.
For atheists, it is not a problem - if it seems that life is so painful, then there is the choice to end that life and end the suffering.
As to worms that eat their way into a human eyeball, that, also is part of God's will for the world. Who (apart from the loving, benevolent God) is to say that the child will not discover great things through their blindness, or that the worm will reproduce and go on to do good into the future?
The point is that good, rational and entirely justifiable questions such as these are answered by the faithful with some variant of:
"Trust in God. He truly knows what is best for you and for everyone else on earth. It is not our place to question why. Just believe, have faith and you will be rewarded in Heaven"
As I said, I only repeat the theology as I understand it.
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Baths - // I'm with Andy on this one, and I recommend listening to what Stephen Fry has to say about this on YouTube. //
Exactly - and that point is one that resonated strongly with me - which is why I quoted it as a perfect example.
Just that one simple example - and there are billions more from the human race past and present - illustrates that the 'loving benevolent God' who demands worship, cannot exist beyond the imagination of people who need him.
That same mind set produces a need to worship the sun, or a rock, or any other entity. If people gain comfort, then fine, but it's not a point that can be gainsaid by any Christian, although I welcome their efforts to try.
'Suffer the little children ...' has more than one meaning!
Exactly - and that point is one that resonated strongly with me - which is why I quoted it as a perfect example.
Just that one simple example - and there are billions more from the human race past and present - illustrates that the 'loving benevolent God' who demands worship, cannot exist beyond the imagination of people who need him.
That same mind set produces a need to worship the sun, or a rock, or any other entity. If people gain comfort, then fine, but it's not a point that can be gainsaid by any Christian, although I welcome their efforts to try.
'Suffer the little children ...' has more than one meaning!
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" a loving God has a plan for each of us, that God also gave us the freedom to make choices. "
I've never understood this. If a God has a plan for us then that is preordination but if you throw freedom of choice into the mix, then you cannot have preordination, unless God knows what your choice will be and therefore it is not a "free" choice.
I've never understood this. If a God has a plan for us then that is preordination but if you throw freedom of choice into the mix, then you cannot have preordination, unless God knows what your choice will be and therefore it is not a "free" choice.
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Hi Andy
I believe that is what a theologically-minded Christian would say.
Ultimately, all questions of faith are irrational. That's what faith is. Believing in something with no need for evidence or proof.
I'm not sure it matters what I believe. I'm entirely comfortable in my beliefs, such as they are.
I don't seek to convert anyone to my system of beliefs, but I respect that others have different beliefs from my own.
I was trying to underline that many have tackled this question of 'Why does God let bad things happen to good people?'
It's something of a standard trope in philosophical/theological discussions. A long time ago, I spent a lot of time late in the night rehearsing those arguments with all kinds of different people, because a the time I was less comfortable in my beliefs and in my own skin.
The conclusion I came to is given above. For a person of faith, this is not a discussion that is either 'won' or 'lost' through discussion and debate. It's not a rational thing, so rational debate will not offer any insights.
Ultimately, the faithful have faith because they believe in a greater God.
If you want to put a Christian on the spot, then this is the question to ask. It is extraordinarily difficult to answer it in a rational way.
In the end the faithful have to resort to mysticism to answer it.
Mysticism is at the heart of the debate about faith and rationality.
This question (why does God permit bad things...) reveals the mysticism at the heart of Christianity (and other Abrahamic religions), much as Zen Buddhism seeks to destroy the individual's reliance on rational thought through Koans and physical striking.
Personally, I don't have the courage for that. I like my rationality and my logic. But that does not detract from the strength of character I have seen in people with a deep faith.
I believe that is what a theologically-minded Christian would say.
Ultimately, all questions of faith are irrational. That's what faith is. Believing in something with no need for evidence or proof.
I'm not sure it matters what I believe. I'm entirely comfortable in my beliefs, such as they are.
I don't seek to convert anyone to my system of beliefs, but I respect that others have different beliefs from my own.
I was trying to underline that many have tackled this question of 'Why does God let bad things happen to good people?'
It's something of a standard trope in philosophical/theological discussions. A long time ago, I spent a lot of time late in the night rehearsing those arguments with all kinds of different people, because a the time I was less comfortable in my beliefs and in my own skin.
The conclusion I came to is given above. For a person of faith, this is not a discussion that is either 'won' or 'lost' through discussion and debate. It's not a rational thing, so rational debate will not offer any insights.
Ultimately, the faithful have faith because they believe in a greater God.
If you want to put a Christian on the spot, then this is the question to ask. It is extraordinarily difficult to answer it in a rational way.
In the end the faithful have to resort to mysticism to answer it.
Mysticism is at the heart of the debate about faith and rationality.
This question (why does God permit bad things...) reveals the mysticism at the heart of Christianity (and other Abrahamic religions), much as Zen Buddhism seeks to destroy the individual's reliance on rational thought through Koans and physical striking.
Personally, I don't have the courage for that. I like my rationality and my logic. But that does not detract from the strength of character I have seen in people with a deep faith.
-- answer removed --
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