Koran ( Episode Two)

[atalanta]

all of those souls who recently advised me on a choice of edition of the Koran will be delighted to hear that I have received a copy, free, from a bunch of ( shall we say ) Muslim enthusiasts in New Street in Birmingham today while I was shopping. But why do you suppose their leader was so suspicious of my motives ?

[vetuste_ennemi]

I assume that your version is in the conventional order, Atalanta, that is from longest chapter to shortest. Some of the most interesting chapters are early in the Koran. The suras are all titled. My translation calls chapter 4' which explains whom a pious Muslim man may have sex with, "Women". A later sura (8?), which deals with war, the treatment of captives and the distribution of spoils, is called " Booty". I think you'll find sura 5 interesting. This chapter contains the often quoted verse "anyone who kills one man for no just cause, it is as if he killed the whole of humankind".

[keyplus90]

I know you said that everything has been explained a bit too much where it was not necessary. I will only add that commentary or explanation gives "context" as translation alone sometimes does not tell you the full story. Context is very necessary when it comes to translating religious books. Because only then would you understand that what laws, rules, do’s and don’ts were only for that time and what are for all of the times.

[vulcan42]

You would think God would have had the Koran written so that his followers could easily understand it. The perfect book shouldn't need commentary and explanations.

[naomi24]

Keyplus, //Context is very necessary when it comes to translating religious books. Because only then would you understand that what laws, rules, do’s and don’ts were only for that time and what are for all of the times. //

According to whom – and how can aspects of this book possibly have been written only for that time? This is the direct word of Allah we're talking about – his FINAL revelation to mankind, so no going back. Was he really so incapable of transmitting his message that he depended, for time immemorial, upon human beings such as the grossly ill-informed Dr Zakir Naik to interject on his behalf? Do you believe that? Really?

[birdie1971]

Keyplus - "... Because only then would you understand that what laws, rules, do’s and don’ts were only for that time and what are for all of the times..."

The Koran is immutable isn't it? That is the claim made time and time again by muslims.

The claim is that the teachings of Islam are "right" for all times and in all places: they were "right" then and therefore they are "right" now and forever. If you're now saying that some of the claims Islam makes for itself are not valid today then you've somewhat shifted in your position.

You now appear to be saying that the teachings of Mohammed as recorded in the Koran, the Sira and the Hadith are NOT the immutable. If so, well done you. It's about time you saw them for what they are.

[vetuste_ennemi]

K for Kitman. L for liar. M for mendacious. Forgot the J.

[vetuste_ennemi]

It comes back to me now.

[atalanta]

vetust - you quote " for no just cause". I am much looking forward to finding out what the Koran defines as "just cause". If it leaves the definition to the believer himself, no wonder we have so much killing and brutality. What if I were to claim it is "just cause" to kill my neighbour if he keeps me awake at night ? Or lets his dog mess in my garden ? Or he believes a different scripture from mine ?

[vetuste_ennemi]

I think it will be obvious what "just cause" means or can mean, Atalanta. Another phrase is "causing mischief in the land". Read the book and come to your own conclusion. Sura 9 ("Repentance" in my translation) discusses this issue.

[keyplus90]

I believe that atlanta has ability to read, analyse and make his/her own mind about Quran just as S/he would do about any other book. Being Muslim I tried help by giving “first hand” knowledge and I have no intention whatsoever to influence anyone in any matter. However I am not sure what a few others are trying to do? But with that I will leave it as it is. So there you go, play your game.

[naomi24]

Keyplus, //However I am not sure what a few others are trying to do? //

I would say they're advising atalanta not to be influenced by people who are no more skilled in the art of reading than she is. In retrospect, I imagine that advice was surplus to requirements. She's a smart lady.

[birdie1971]

Keyplus - "... Being Muslim I tried help by giving “first hand” knowledge and I have no intention whatsoever to influence anyone in any matter..."

Yes you do. You do so repeatedly.

You did so in your post of 21:44 Sun 29th Nov 2015 where you stated, "... But you may still need further information about certain aspects. This is a good website: http://irf.net/index.html". That statement was an attempt to influence Atalanta into viewing an extremely pro-Islamic website that actually tells some pretty blatant lies about Islam.

This one in particular made me laugh. On the FAQ page there's a section called "Most Common Questions asked by Non-Muslims who have some knowledge of Islam". Under the question, "Does Islam promote violence?" we get this complete drivel:
http://irf.net/faq/faq2_03.html

It's a mealy-mouthed attempt to explain away the brutality and wanton violence that infests the Koran like a cancer in just a few paragraphs. It's actually quite insulting to anyone with a modicum of intelligence who has read the Koran.

[Jackdaw33]

What does SWT stand for after the name of Allah in the link?

[vetuste_ennemi]

"The Exalted, the Majestic and the Sublime" is the Arab acronym, Jackdaw. I think.

[vetuste_ennemi]

...is the meaning of....

[SirOracle]

Jackdaw It stands for Subhanahu wa ta'ala.

It is Arabic and I haven't a clue what it means. Don't think you will find it in your Prayer Book or in my Missal. !! ;-)

[Hypognosis]

@Birdie1971

Yes, if "context" was oh-so important, why would a god want (a sizeable chunk of) their last word to their creation to be the war diary of one general, with everything having to be read in the "context" of one, specific war?

Also, if he had meant 9:5 to apply only to the battlefield, it is only three extra words to say "wherever you find them… on the battlefield".

Just three words to transform it into something roughly equivalent to Christianity: be nice to people all the time but, when blockheads insist on declaring war on you then you are permitted to kill them, in battle. Go back to being nice after the war is declared to be over.

On its own "wherever you find them" sounds like they should scour all the corners of the earth.

Again, if context is important, it would be helpful to know if Mohammed knew anything of the wider world, beyond the bounds of Arabia? But what Muslim scholar would dare say that he was a parochial ignoramus, who'd (maybe) seen Roman ruins but never set eyes on a Roman (Byzantine, by his time) or who had only vaguely heard of the Levant?

If the context is the Mecca/Medina wars and it was *always* meant to be peace, after that, then all the Muslim expansion beyond those two city states could be regarded as un-Islamic and, in essence, imperialism.

[vetuste_ennemi]

I agree with your post, Hypo. But it is an attempt to influence the original poster. The texts speak very well for themselves. Let's wait for Atalanta's reaction.

[vetuste_ennemi]

I apologise for saying "attempt". Your remark was fair comment.

[Hypognosis]

@vetuste

No problem.

But you are right. No more spoilers, leave atalanta to it and let her update us about her progress as and when she feels like it.