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Freedom To Choose
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Why do religious people think that we have a CHOICE in what we believe or dont believe?
I had an interesting conversation this morning with a couple of door knocking JW's. Unlike most people I actually enjoy a bit of banter with them when they come knocking, actually makes me feel good that I'm relatively sane when they've gone.
The conversation went along the lines that we have a choice to accept (their version of ) God. I pointed out that belief is not a choice, I cant make myself believe something that I find patently absurd. My present beliefs (religious, political or otherwise) are based on my level of understanding to date aquirred through knowledge and experience. They then talked about the need for repentance when I pointed out that that in itself is a belief...and one that I dont share as I dont see myself as a sinner in need of forgiveness from some deity. They seemed a bit aghast at that. I pointed out that I was quiet aware of my shortcomings but that wasnt the same thing as sin, which is an alien concept to me.
What I didnt point out to them was that I went through a religious period in my teenage years but eventually had to give it up as I valued truth over doctrine...I couldnt 'make' myself believe what I was been taught anymore than I could still believe in Santa.
I just wondered if any religious ABers (goodlife, keyplus etc) can grasp the concept that non believers are not non believers by choice but by understanding, experience and knowledge?
Thanks
I had an interesting conversation this morning with a couple of door knocking JW's. Unlike most people I actually enjoy a bit of banter with them when they come knocking, actually makes me feel good that I'm relatively sane when they've gone.
The conversation went along the lines that we have a choice to accept (their version of ) God. I pointed out that belief is not a choice, I cant make myself believe something that I find patently absurd. My present beliefs (religious, political or otherwise) are based on my level of understanding to date aquirred through knowledge and experience. They then talked about the need for repentance when I pointed out that that in itself is a belief...and one that I dont share as I dont see myself as a sinner in need of forgiveness from some deity. They seemed a bit aghast at that. I pointed out that I was quiet aware of my shortcomings but that wasnt the same thing as sin, which is an alien concept to me.
What I didnt point out to them was that I went through a religious period in my teenage years but eventually had to give it up as I valued truth over doctrine...I couldnt 'make' myself believe what I was been taught anymore than I could still believe in Santa.
I just wondered if any religious ABers (goodlife, keyplus etc) can grasp the concept that non believers are not non believers by choice but by understanding, experience and knowledge?
Thanks
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With the greatest respect nailit, your mistake was engaging in a conversation with the JWs in the first place. Discussing anything with JWs is like trying to nail custard to the wall...it all ends in tears.
Just tell them that you have been "disfellowshipped" To be seen talking to a person that has been disfellowshipped is about the worse thing that a JW can do.
I totally agree with your last sentence though....my own atheism is a positive atheism, not an absence of belief. This is just common sense. But JWs, like all religious people, have abandoned logic and rational, otherwise they wouldn't be believers in the first place, would they ?
Just tell them that you have been "disfellowshipped" To be seen talking to a person that has been disfellowshipped is about the worse thing that a JW can do.
I totally agree with your last sentence though....my own atheism is a positive atheism, not an absence of belief. This is just common sense. But JWs, like all religious people, have abandoned logic and rational, otherwise they wouldn't be believers in the first place, would they ?
I'm sure, mikey, your one heck of a nice guy... but I can't think of a more arrogant statement than your "...This is just common sense. But JWs, like all religious people, have abandoned logic and rational, otherwise they wouldn't be believers in the first place, would they ?"
Are you trying to convince yourself that your understanding of history, mathmatics, science (unless you're a practicising scientist yourself) geneaology and nearly everything you've learned to become mikey[i results in experiments and research? Fact is, intentionally or not, you've formed your opinions and 'beliefs' by investigating evidence that is often centuries, if not eons old. Newton's Laws would be a good example. I'm certain you didn't do the 'thinking' to propose such laws... you read about them and accepted them based on reasoning that thye were true. You [i]never] did the proving work for yourself, no?
Well, it stands to reason, one of the many ways to come to believe in 'religion' can be the result of serious investigation of the historical facts (not to mention the changed lives of many acquaintences along the way). Why is it any less valid to developan understanding of historical records sufficiently to determine they are factual than what you must have done with our friend Newton?
Don't tell me that you can't "see" God... you can't see Mr. Newton or Mr. Einstein and you certainly can't "see" the results of their work as in E=mc^2.
Historians have generally accepted as factual that there was a "man" that lived at a specific time and specific place and had a specifice name... that being (in Hebrew) Yeshua. There are many extra-biblical references to those and other "facts". Yet you and many others immediately discount those references for various reasons... most of which have to do more with personal belief systems (such as atheism) rather than the sources and facts available for investigation.
So... your assumption of superiority doesn't promote your obvious intelligence when considering validity of source material available to make a sound judgement about the life, burial and ressurection of Yeshua, the evidence for which is at least as reliable as that for the Crimean War or our own Civil War...
Having said all that, it is undeniable that you have every right to your atheism, but that doesn't equate to denigrating on the grounds of logic or rational those of us that have made our investigation on those same grounds...
Are you trying to convince yourself that your understanding of history, mathmatics, science (unless you're a practicising scientist yourself) geneaology and nearly everything you've learned to become mikey[i results in experiments and research? Fact is, intentionally or not, you've formed your opinions and 'beliefs' by investigating evidence that is often centuries, if not eons old. Newton's Laws would be a good example. I'm certain you didn't do the 'thinking' to propose such laws... you read about them and accepted them based on reasoning that thye were true. You [i]never] did the proving work for yourself, no?
Well, it stands to reason, one of the many ways to come to believe in 'religion' can be the result of serious investigation of the historical facts (not to mention the changed lives of many acquaintences along the way). Why is it any less valid to developan understanding of historical records sufficiently to determine they are factual than what you must have done with our friend Newton?
Don't tell me that you can't "see" God... you can't see Mr. Newton or Mr. Einstein and you certainly can't "see" the results of their work as in E=mc^2.
Historians have generally accepted as factual that there was a "man" that lived at a specific time and specific place and had a specifice name... that being (in Hebrew) Yeshua. There are many extra-biblical references to those and other "facts". Yet you and many others immediately discount those references for various reasons... most of which have to do more with personal belief systems (such as atheism) rather than the sources and facts available for investigation.
So... your assumption of superiority doesn't promote your obvious intelligence when considering validity of source material available to make a sound judgement about the life, burial and ressurection of Yeshua, the evidence for which is at least as reliable as that for the Crimean War or our own Civil War...
Having said all that, it is undeniable that you have every right to your atheism, but that doesn't equate to denigrating on the grounds of logic or rational those of us that have made our investigation on those same grounds...
Clanad...all religions are based on the irrational belief in illogical circumstances. I don't know for sure if the Moon is made of green cheese, as I haven't been there, but I am still not prepared to allow the door to remain slightly open, just in case it is.
The massive amount of different religions that have existed in the world, and still exist, speaks volumes for the lack of credulity in their followers. The people who follow plainly daft religions, like Scientology, are just as guilty of a lack of credulity and judgement, as the followers of Jesus, but the difference is that Christianity has been around for 2000 years, where the religion invented by L Ron Hubbard has only been around since 1952.
I would rather believe David Attenborough when he tells us that the Grand Canyon was created millions of years ago, rather than some born-again Christian, who insists it was made only 6000 years. That is exercising my education and intellect, not blind faith.
As you can see, I am a positive Atheist, not just someone who can't be bothered to make up his mind. And as you have already said, I am entitled to my viewpoint, as you are to yours. If stating my view is being arrogant, than every person who has a view and sticks by it is arrogant too, so please don't patronise me !
The massive amount of different religions that have existed in the world, and still exist, speaks volumes for the lack of credulity in their followers. The people who follow plainly daft religions, like Scientology, are just as guilty of a lack of credulity and judgement, as the followers of Jesus, but the difference is that Christianity has been around for 2000 years, where the religion invented by L Ron Hubbard has only been around since 1952.
I would rather believe David Attenborough when he tells us that the Grand Canyon was created millions of years ago, rather than some born-again Christian, who insists it was made only 6000 years. That is exercising my education and intellect, not blind faith.
As you can see, I am a positive Atheist, not just someone who can't be bothered to make up his mind. And as you have already said, I am entitled to my viewpoint, as you are to yours. If stating my view is being arrogant, than every person who has a view and sticks by it is arrogant too, so please don't patronise me !
Problem is you use a cliche' to illustrate your point of irrational belief in illogical circumstances, while proving nothing. Usher's attempt at determining the age of the Earth has long since been discredited but it was the best he could do at the time, considering the information he worked with. Even then, it only takes cursory study of his compilation to see even the genealogies wee in error due to his misunderstanding.
Using intellect and education in the Attenborough illustraion certainly proves my point in that, while certainly entertaining, you seem to think he discovered the age of the Grand Canyon, rather than reading someone else's indepth work on the subject. You have failed to include those that disagree with David which many do since the exact mechanism of the erosion are debated.
The Apostle Peter said while "...For we did not follow cleverly devised stories when we told you about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in power, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty." is very difficult to ignore, especially when followed on by John who emphasizes " That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched--this we proclaim concerning the Word of life", and then to understand these same people gladly died for the teachings they brought isn't lightly discarded but has the ring of truth that demands an answer... but not one as glib as yours (just so you understand no patronizing was intended).
Using intellect and education in the Attenborough illustraion certainly proves my point in that, while certainly entertaining, you seem to think he discovered the age of the Grand Canyon, rather than reading someone else's indepth work on the subject. You have failed to include those that disagree with David which many do since the exact mechanism of the erosion are debated.
The Apostle Peter said while "...For we did not follow cleverly devised stories when we told you about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in power, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty." is very difficult to ignore, especially when followed on by John who emphasizes " That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched--this we proclaim concerning the Word of life", and then to understand these same people gladly died for the teachings they brought isn't lightly discarded but has the ring of truth that demands an answer... but not one as glib as yours (just so you understand no patronizing was intended).
If a religious person has unthinkingly absorbed all the "beliefs" which he or she has been taught from birth, that person claims to be a believer. If that believer is presented with evidence which contradicts these "beliefs", and chooses to ignore this evidence, then that "belief system" becomes a fairy story. Virgin birth does not happen in humans, but it appeared frequently in myths around the time of Christ. True resurrection does not happen, but it appears in almost every religion I can think of, because people prefer to think that death is not the end. Women are treated as subordinates in most religions, since men run the power systems and want women to be their dependent and powerless servants. Miracles happen in religion but not in real life. Prayers of people (who in their very prayers admit that they are unworthy) are expected to be answered by altering the laws of nature. Belief is at first the indoctrination of children, then, in later life, in the face of evidence to the contrary, wilful self-deceit.
Clanad...from your choice of words and phrases, it is fairly obvious that you are a follower of the JW type of religion. If that is so, then no further conversation is needed or desired.
I don't know whether JWs have the same reputation in the States as they do in Britain, but I expect that there is little difference, so I will treat you as I would over here ........I am not interested, so go away !
I won't be continuing our conversation but I will offer you some advice....go and find a less well educated person to debate with...it is likely that you will have more success !
I don't know whether JWs have the same reputation in the States as they do in Britain, but I expect that there is little difference, so I will treat you as I would over here ........I am not interested, so go away !
I won't be continuing our conversation but I will offer you some advice....go and find a less well educated person to debate with...it is likely that you will have more success !
My understanding,experience and knowledge leads me to believe that energy , matter and life can not create itself , and this provides strong evidence for the existence of a deity .
When I look at the Earth - its equilibrium system , every aspect of it , the volume of water on the Earth relative to its mass which results in the water staying on the Earth and in the atmosphere of the Earth rather than evaporating away ,the rotation of the Earth combined with the axial tilt which enables the Earth to stay at a temperature which will retain that water rather than it evaporating away , and which drives the climate and weather systems which distribute that water over the surface of the planet via the rain cycle , purifying the atmosphere as it does so - that water is the key to the Earth's ability to sustain life - the equilibrium of life on earth - in which plants play a fundamental part in purifying the atmosphere along with the rain - when I look at that self-purifying equilibrium system which has enabled the Earth to sustain life for thousands of years , my understanding , experience and knowledge leads me to believe that it is beyond co-incidence and provides strong evidence for the existence of a deity .
A respectful question for the non-believers - persumably you think that this has all happened randomly , do you not think that you are stretching co-incidence a bit too far here ?
When I look at the Earth - its equilibrium system , every aspect of it , the volume of water on the Earth relative to its mass which results in the water staying on the Earth and in the atmosphere of the Earth rather than evaporating away ,the rotation of the Earth combined with the axial tilt which enables the Earth to stay at a temperature which will retain that water rather than it evaporating away , and which drives the climate and weather systems which distribute that water over the surface of the planet via the rain cycle , purifying the atmosphere as it does so - that water is the key to the Earth's ability to sustain life - the equilibrium of life on earth - in which plants play a fundamental part in purifying the atmosphere along with the rain - when I look at that self-purifying equilibrium system which has enabled the Earth to sustain life for thousands of years , my understanding , experience and knowledge leads me to believe that it is beyond co-incidence and provides strong evidence for the existence of a deity .
A respectful question for the non-believers - persumably you think that this has all happened randomly , do you not think that you are stretching co-incidence a bit too far here ?
benhilton, //My understanding,experience and knowledge leads me to believe that energy , matter and life can not create itself , and this provides strong evidence for the existence of a deity .//
Your understanding, experience, and knowledge cannot be construed as ‘evidence’ of any description, but that aside, which deity? To all intents and purposes it would appear to be generally accepted that it is the God of Abraham – but why? His track record (if it is to be believed) confirms without doubt that he was not omniscient, nor omnipotent, and certainly not omnibenevolent. Nevertheless he is awarded the accolades. If you can explain why, I’m listening, but for the time being the hero worship continues to make no sense.
Mikey, //I won't be continuing our conversation but I will offer you some advice....go and find a less well educated person to debate with//
You’ve said nothing to Clanad – who is clearly well educated - that leads me to believe that where this subject is concerned you are similarly well educated.
Your understanding, experience, and knowledge cannot be construed as ‘evidence’ of any description, but that aside, which deity? To all intents and purposes it would appear to be generally accepted that it is the God of Abraham – but why? His track record (if it is to be believed) confirms without doubt that he was not omniscient, nor omnipotent, and certainly not omnibenevolent. Nevertheless he is awarded the accolades. If you can explain why, I’m listening, but for the time being the hero worship continues to make no sense.
Mikey, //I won't be continuing our conversation but I will offer you some advice....go and find a less well educated person to debate with//
You’ve said nothing to Clanad – who is clearly well educated - that leads me to believe that where this subject is concerned you are similarly well educated.
Benhilton, you are putting the cart before the horse just a bit. Life probably evolved on earth because conditions were right for it, just as it would have evolved differently if conditions were different. It is no co-incidence that conditions on earth are so suited to life .... because life suited itself to the conditions. No need for your god at all, it was inevitable. I guess you won't understand that.
Nice move, mikey… thought you'd stay around to interchange ideas… firmly no when it comes to JW's or any other cult… all cults have the same consistent traits… using standard Scripture by changing it to their benefit and a charismatic leader capable of doing exactly why you say happens to any firmly grounded believer.
Thank you naomi… always interesting to exchange thrust and parries with you…
Atalanta, your experience and mine greatly differ… no wonder there. I'm surrounded by mature, thinking men and women who have come to understand that the myths you describe as being 'common' in all religions actually have no proof of their existence, whereas the Scriptures I quoted earlier are the hallmarks of those who experienced something wondrous and which, besides being referenced by outside sources, were truly earth shaking in their reality. These same men and women came to their 'belief' later in life with an intervening period of at least agnosticism if not out right atheism all based on their intense inquiry as to the facts.
The most common 'myth' perpetrated by non-believers is that the early Apostolic church (who, BTW were almost all Jews) was begun and continued, to take advantage of easily misled followers usually with the underlying charge of doing the leading to make huge amounts of money or develop political power.
History is replete with the torture, killing and attempt at eradication of the early church… both at the hands of Rome as well as the Jewish leaders and others. But flourish it did and spread over the known world and each of the original Apostles died spreading that word. It wasn't until ca. AD 350 that the Roman branch of the church began to acquire power that we still see exercised today.
My dispute with Catholicism is as vigorous as with JW's, Mormons or others. I'm not Lutheran, but do agree with Martin's pronunciation of Sola Scriptura… one cannot earn their own way… only accept the payment of a debt the outcome of which, otherwise, is death.
But… miracles did and still do occur. Even in Scripture, Old and New Covenants, Yahweh used His power to produce miracles was quite rare, but happen they do as I can personally attest, just as I see the elevation of women in the New Testament to positions of equality not seen elsewhere, as you say, in the ancient world (and often in our own).
I can say confidently, I am a friend of God… but only because He first said it and Yeshua ha Messiach is the ultimate source of meaning, hope, and love, and that a fruitful life finds him at its center...
Thank you naomi… always interesting to exchange thrust and parries with you…
Atalanta, your experience and mine greatly differ… no wonder there. I'm surrounded by mature, thinking men and women who have come to understand that the myths you describe as being 'common' in all religions actually have no proof of their existence, whereas the Scriptures I quoted earlier are the hallmarks of those who experienced something wondrous and which, besides being referenced by outside sources, were truly earth shaking in their reality. These same men and women came to their 'belief' later in life with an intervening period of at least agnosticism if not out right atheism all based on their intense inquiry as to the facts.
The most common 'myth' perpetrated by non-believers is that the early Apostolic church (who, BTW were almost all Jews) was begun and continued, to take advantage of easily misled followers usually with the underlying charge of doing the leading to make huge amounts of money or develop political power.
History is replete with the torture, killing and attempt at eradication of the early church… both at the hands of Rome as well as the Jewish leaders and others. But flourish it did and spread over the known world and each of the original Apostles died spreading that word. It wasn't until ca. AD 350 that the Roman branch of the church began to acquire power that we still see exercised today.
My dispute with Catholicism is as vigorous as with JW's, Mormons or others. I'm not Lutheran, but do agree with Martin's pronunciation of Sola Scriptura… one cannot earn their own way… only accept the payment of a debt the outcome of which, otherwise, is death.
But… miracles did and still do occur. Even in Scripture, Old and New Covenants, Yahweh used His power to produce miracles was quite rare, but happen they do as I can personally attest, just as I see the elevation of women in the New Testament to positions of equality not seen elsewhere, as you say, in the ancient world (and often in our own).
I can say confidently, I am a friend of God… but only because He first said it and Yeshua ha Messiach is the ultimate source of meaning, hope, and love, and that a fruitful life finds him at its center...
Clanad, such is your enthusiasm for declaring as ‘fact’ that which is very definitely not ‘fact’, that I hardly know where to begin to address your argument, but we’ve been here before so you will know that I see little in your claims other than wishful thinking. For example you say //I see the elevation of women in the New Testament to positions of equality not seen elsewhere// - but if you do you’re not reading the book I’m reading. You may believe what you want to believe but deceiving yourself by embellishing it and ignoring reality doesn’t make it so. Oddly enough, you and Mikey have that habit in common, albeit in different spheres.
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