Ghosts

[naomi24]

This emanates from another thread where two people who have been raised as Christians and have and do argue here in favour of religion dismissed the notion that people see ghosts. The question is if you believe that human beings possess a spirit, or a soul, that survives corporal death, why do you doubt that ‘ghosts’ exist?

[jim360]

I don't have a problem with the idea that weird things happen -- what I do think is that it's unlikely to be anything new (to science), or unusual, or beyond our explaining. I don't mean this in a rude way, but if you cannot explain it does not mean that someone else can't. There is often a lack of real data, however, so it's difficult to provide a convincing explanation without more detail. But I don't expect such weird noises and bumps in the night to be a sign of "ghosts" -- at least, not ghosts in the traditional sense of spirits from another world, or the afterlife, or something like that.

Rather like many other apparently paranormal phenomena, there is a lot that needs to be ruled out before I and indeed before Science can be convinced that there is anything worth investigating.

[pixie373]

I have to say i was surprised by the dowsing post (and said so on it). The supernatural is on par with religion for me, in that we have thousands of years of anecdotes and not a shred of evidence. If any of it were true, someone, somewhere, would have some proof. Surely?

[Mojo-Jo-Jo]

Yep Pixie.

[naomi24]

Mojo, thank you for that. Most kind – but I see no connection between God and dowsing, or God and mediums (most of whom I have no time for), or God and ghosts. I don’t believe that anything in this universe is ‘supernatural’, and frankly it matters not one jot to me what you think. I cannot be accountable for your lack of confidence in the potential progression of science.

Jim, see above.

Pixie, see above.

[pixie373]

I have every confidence in Science. That's what I'm saying. Far more than anecdotes.

[jim360]

What I suppose I've been driving at over this series of debates is that if you think that pursuing such tales as ghosts, or dowsing, or even that one medium you "know" to be genuine, would benefit science, then why not act on it? It would secure yourself international fame for the rest of history, and would be enormously beneficial to Science, if you could show that this works in a convincing way that doesn't just rely on personal account.

In the meantime, I'll follow my line of investigation. History will judge which

[jim360]

... which route is more productive.

[Mojo-Jo-Jo]

Actually Naomi, by your blase dismissal of me, Jim and Pixie I can see that your beliefs are just as fixed as those of Goodlife, Keyplus and Khandro, only in a different direction.
I don't mind if you approve of my opinions or not, but yours are flawed.

[naomi24]

Pixie, I have confidence in science too – but unlike you, I don’t think it’s reached its apex and I have every confidence that it will reach far greater heights.

Jim, no need for sarcasm. It does you no favours. If you can’t argue with constructive responses, don’t bother.

Mojo, Oh dear. Attacking the messenger? It's a sorry retort - and it doesn't work. I haven’t dismissed any of you. My response might not be to your taste, but I’ve addressed all of your posts quite honestly and rationally.

[pixie373]

No, I'm not saying it's reached it's apex at all. I doubt it ever will. Just that what we have so far, is what we know. We have known about religion and ghosts for such a long time and still, nobody has proved anything. I think there is a reason for that!

[Mojo-Jo-Jo]

You've addressed my points to suit you Naomi, but you haven't acknowledged that you have the same level of faith in these things that you castigate others for. And you do.
I have no, repeat no, scientific evidence of ghosts, dowsing or heaven forbid mediums being any use, so why do you believe them to be true and real? It makes no sense. It requires faith.

[jim360]

I'm not being sarcastic at all. Go out, investigate these claims, and if you find anything then why not report it?

I too believe Science will reach far greater heights than it has done so far. I just think I'm in a better position to have an idea of what those heights might be, seeing as how I'm spending the next four years trying to contribute to them.

[naomi24]

Pixie, I don't know why you bring religion into this at all, but disregarding that, you have your opinions - so be it. As I said, there’s no point in attempting to convince minds that, without an iota of personal experience, are already solidly made up . I’m not trying to convince any of you..

Mojo, you’re mistaken. I don’t have faith – and I cannot be held responsible for your ignorance.

Jim, in that case I can only suggest you extend the boundaries of your curiosity. Good luck.

[Spoonboy]

If a ghost is a reflection of past life, we all have ghosts hiding somewhere along the way.

[pixie373]

I didn't. The OP brought religion into it;-)

[Mojo-Jo-Jo]

My ignorance. That's funny Naomi.
I'm not the one who believes in ghosts.

[jim360]

You see, what you really mean when you say that you have confidence in science is that "at some point Science will catch up with me and realise I was right all along."

I'm plenty curious enough, Naomi, but at some point curiosity has to be tempered by reality, and the reality is that there is not a shred of credible evidence for pretty much all of what you seem to believe in. Including, but presumably not limited to, ghosts, dowsing, MMR causing autism, aliens visiting earth to start off religion, telepathy, and any medium being genuine, whether or not they charge money for their readings.

[Mojo-Jo-Jo]

But spends their entire time sl*gging off religious believers.
You are a hypocrite Naomi, like it or not.

[naomi24]

Pixie, that was a different question. It didn't bring religion into this discussion.

Mojo, exactly. Thank you.

[Mojo-Jo-Jo]

If we are to extend our scientific thinking to encompass your beliefs, surely we should extend that thinking to religion .
So even thought here is no proof of any of it happening, science just hasn't caught up yet.
I''m surprised you don't see the flaw in your arguments.