ChatterBank18 mins ago
Do we know enough to know what it all means?
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Meaning is a succession of events directed at a particular outcome. Say "now" - when is/was that word? A word is a succession of events. The challenge I set the contributors to this thread is to explain how we can have awareness now. If we dont have it now then when can we have it?
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Words are not the object but rather a symbolic representation intended to correspond conceptually to the object or action to which they refer. Meaning is that which defines the conceptual relationship of the word to its corresponding referent.
Now is not a moment in time but refers to a specific moment or period of time to which it pertains within the context in which the term is/was used.
The word is not the thing . . . unless the thing is the word.
Now is not a moment in time but refers to a specific moment or period of time to which it pertains within the context in which the term is/was used.
The word is not the thing . . . unless the thing is the word.
mibn... "Words are not the object but rather a symbolic representation .."
OK, substitute a clap of thunder or a flash of light for the word "now" so that we do not need to worry about symbols - you are there, there is a flash of light, when does it happen?
mibn... "Now is not a moment in time but refers to a specific moment or period of time to which it pertains within the context in which the term is/was used."
As above, we have removed the word and just have an event. Can awareness containing the event occur at an instant (ie: in no time at all).
OK, substitute a clap of thunder or a flash of light for the word "now" so that we do not need to worry about symbols - you are there, there is a flash of light, when does it happen?
mibn... "Now is not a moment in time but refers to a specific moment or period of time to which it pertains within the context in which the term is/was used."
As above, we have removed the word and just have an event. Can awareness containing the event occur at an instant (ie: in no time at all).
rojash ""Meaning is a succession of events directed at a particular outcome. Say "now" - when is/was that word? A word is a succession of events."
Sorry mate, but that is just meaningless waffle."
OK, try this. We say that a succession of events such as pressing a switch on a wall have meaning because they produce an output such as turning on a light. The meaning of actions depends upon where they are directed, push somewhere else and you might dislodge a bogey from your nose and the action has the meaning of "nose cleaning". Actions have meanings that are independent of words - a deaf and dumb person can do meaningful things. So "Meaning is a succession of events directed at a particular outcome".
Now take any event such as a flash of light. Can it be perceived in no time at all? No, not just because perception takes time but also because existence takes time. Nothing exists for no time at all. So "Say "now" - when is/was that word? A word is a succession of events." summarises how things can only be known over a period of time.
I hope that has reduced what you feel to be waffle. Incidentally, similar problems arise with the definition and description of "space" (the length and breadth etc. of objects). Can objects exist that have no extent? Probably not.
Sorry mate, but that is just meaningless waffle."
OK, try this. We say that a succession of events such as pressing a switch on a wall have meaning because they produce an output such as turning on a light. The meaning of actions depends upon where they are directed, push somewhere else and you might dislodge a bogey from your nose and the action has the meaning of "nose cleaning". Actions have meanings that are independent of words - a deaf and dumb person can do meaningful things. So "Meaning is a succession of events directed at a particular outcome".
Now take any event such as a flash of light. Can it be perceived in no time at all? No, not just because perception takes time but also because existence takes time. Nothing exists for no time at all. So "Say "now" - when is/was that word? A word is a succession of events." summarises how things can only be known over a period of time.
I hope that has reduced what you feel to be waffle. Incidentally, similar problems arise with the definition and description of "space" (the length and breadth etc. of objects). Can objects exist that have no extent? Probably not.
Waldo.. "Given that I don't accept your definitions of 'meaning' and 'word', I doubt that I can do justice to your task.
Now *that's* awareness"
It may be awareness but is it discussion? See my reply to mibn.. for a closer definition of the problem. (A problem first posed by the Ancient Greeks and used by Aristotle in the analysis of the nature of the Soul).
Now *that's* awareness"
It may be awareness but is it discussion? See my reply to mibn.. for a closer definition of the problem. (A problem first posed by the Ancient Greeks and used by Aristotle in the analysis of the nature of the Soul).
//mibn... "Words are not the object but rather a symbolic representation .."
OK, substitute a clap of thunder or a flash of light for the word "now" so that we do not need to worry about symbols - you are there, there is a flash of light, when does it happen?//
Nothing happens in isolation. When something, an event happens it takes place and can only be measured with respect to something else.
//mibn... "Now is not a moment in time but refers to a specific moment or period of time to which it pertains within the context in which the term is/was used."
As above, we have removed the word and just have an event. Can awareness containing the event occur at an instant (ie: in no time at all).//
Awareness, (consciousness, whether internal or external) is a process. An instant is merely a perception of an immeasurably brief interval of time. The perception of a clap of thunder is based on a perception of the motion of air initiated by the heating of lightning which is itself a process initiated by the release of photons.
Are we discussing reality here or about the processes of perception, consciousness and cognition by which we gain awareness and comprehension of it?
I'll read on, although I'm beginning to feel the presence of the Pyrat . . . rum, that is.
OK, substitute a clap of thunder or a flash of light for the word "now" so that we do not need to worry about symbols - you are there, there is a flash of light, when does it happen?//
Nothing happens in isolation. When something, an event happens it takes place and can only be measured with respect to something else.
//mibn... "Now is not a moment in time but refers to a specific moment or period of time to which it pertains within the context in which the term is/was used."
As above, we have removed the word and just have an event. Can awareness containing the event occur at an instant (ie: in no time at all).//
Awareness, (consciousness, whether internal or external) is a process. An instant is merely a perception of an immeasurably brief interval of time. The perception of a clap of thunder is based on a perception of the motion of air initiated by the heating of lightning which is itself a process initiated by the release of photons.
Are we discussing reality here or about the processes of perception, consciousness and cognition by which we gain awareness and comprehension of it?
I'll read on, although I'm beginning to feel the presence of the Pyrat . . . rum, that is.
Johnysid, what is 'awareness' what do you mean by 'meaning'. Awareness (whatever it is)has to be after the event because it takes the brain a finite time to process information and categorise an event. 'Now' is an illusion created in our mechanistic brain to help process data and our reactions to it. We are always lagging behind reality. The brain does a clever little time shift which is why when we hear ourselves saying something silly we can't stop because the thought was put into words before we realise what we are saying. Our thoughts may seem to be seamless but in reality we just aren't aware of the gaps. We are ignorant of that of which we are ignorant. 'A lot of people don't know that' :-)
For lasting benefit to oneself, it is good to know what one worships, to worship what one knows.
We do wisely to ask ourselves, Do I worship what I know? Or, could it be said to me and to my religious or irreligious associates,
“You people worship what you do not know”? That is to say, You worship you know not what.
We do wisely to ask ourselves, Do I worship what I know? Or, could it be said to me and to my religious or irreligious associates,
“You people worship what you do not know”? That is to say, You worship you know not what.
mibn... "Awareness, (consciousness, whether internal or external) is a process. An instant is merely a perception of an immeasurably brief interval of time. "
At each true "instant" nothing happens so any process is stopped. At each small "interval" of time a small amount happens. Is the present moment instantaneous, a boundary between the past and future or is it a small interval of time?
At each true "instant" nothing happens so any process is stopped. At each small "interval" of time a small amount happens. Is the present moment instantaneous, a boundary between the past and future or is it a small interval of time?
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