Football4 mins ago
How Did They Dicover That The New Vaccine Has To Be Kept At -70 (Or -80)?
I have heard -70 and -80 mentioned on TV reports. Which is it? This is much colder than any freezer is capable of. How are they going to store this vaccine at such low temperatures? And how did they discover this? I imagine a scenario: they have a vaccine and it works for a day or two, but after three days in the fridge it stops working. (They store things in the fridge, because that's what you do. I've heard of problems with medicines that have to be kept 'cool' when they are used in hot climates.) It takes two weeks, at least, to find that the vaccine has stopped working. So they try keeping it in a freezer (-18). That doesn't work. Why try keeping it any colder? Why not? So where do you find a storage system at -70 or -80? There are university Low Temperature Physics Departments that use -272, but I don't suppose many are working at -70 or -80. If there is a medical section, I'd put my question there.
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I don't imagine that -70 is *common*, but it's not rare either. Well within reach of current technology. You could even own your own suitable freezer if you had a spare £16,000 or so lying around.
I'm not at all familiar with the technology so I don't want to comment further, but the point is that such freezers are available but expensive.
I'm not at all familiar with the technology so I don't want to comment further, but the point is that such freezers are available but expensive.
There are different types of vaccine technology. They know which type of vaccine technology is being used to create a vaccine. Although the particular vaccine will be new, the technology to create it will have been fully investigated beforehand, along with storage aspects.
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I posted a link to examples the other day. Some are available within a few days and some not until next year.
It was said that the very low temperature is needed only until forty-eight hours before use. That would mean tens of thousands could be stored in regional centres and then delivered for storage in "regular" freezers as required.
It's been many decades since I've needed a jag so I'm wondering how many can be administered in a day, especially with social distancing.
It was said that the very low temperature is needed only until forty-eight hours before use. That would mean tens of thousands could be stored in regional centres and then delivered for storage in "regular" freezers as required.
It's been many decades since I've needed a jag so I'm wondering how many can be administered in a day, especially with social distancing.
OK lots of misinformation and speculation has happened over this, so let me jump in here and try to clarify.
The ultra low temperature(ULT) storage requirements of the vaccine have been established based on the activity of the vaccine and knowledge of the particular RNA of the virus. It has taken some time to be certain about the right temperature but it was vital that we got it right. The storage temperature, close on -80 degrees C, is not commonplace for vaccines but we got to the bottom of it in the end.
Laboratory ULT freezers are available in most low temperature physics research facilities at universities as well as in many life sciences departments with molecular biology, biochemistry and related discipline departments. They are not common in many but I wouldn't call them rare either. My own laboratories have four ULT freezers that will go down to about -110 degrees C, if needed. Oddly enough, most are rated down to -86 degrees C, which is close to what's needed for the covid vaccine.
Transportation? Not an issue. Special storage boxes have been produced that are packed with dry ice and are fitted with GPS to transport between countries. Sealed boxes will maintain temperature for 10 days. They can then be transferred either to a ULT freezer or a fridge at 2-8 degrees C for up to 5 days. All the vaccine must be used in that 5 days or discarded. It really wouldn't be wise to vaccinate someone with a vaccine at -78 degrees C!
The ultra low temperature(ULT) storage requirements of the vaccine have been established based on the activity of the vaccine and knowledge of the particular RNA of the virus. It has taken some time to be certain about the right temperature but it was vital that we got it right. The storage temperature, close on -80 degrees C, is not commonplace for vaccines but we got to the bottom of it in the end.
Laboratory ULT freezers are available in most low temperature physics research facilities at universities as well as in many life sciences departments with molecular biology, biochemistry and related discipline departments. They are not common in many but I wouldn't call them rare either. My own laboratories have four ULT freezers that will go down to about -110 degrees C, if needed. Oddly enough, most are rated down to -86 degrees C, which is close to what's needed for the covid vaccine.
Transportation? Not an issue. Special storage boxes have been produced that are packed with dry ice and are fitted with GPS to transport between countries. Sealed boxes will maintain temperature for 10 days. They can then be transferred either to a ULT freezer or a fridge at 2-8 degrees C for up to 5 days. All the vaccine must be used in that 5 days or discarded. It really wouldn't be wise to vaccinate someone with a vaccine at -78 degrees C!
standard dry ice and ethanol seems OK
With dry ice these baths will never freeze solid, as pure methanol and ethanol both freeze below −78 °C (−98 °C and −114 °C respectively). Relative to traditional cooling baths, solvent mixtures are adaptable for a wide temperature range.
and a dewar flask
there is a chemist on AB who would be able to clarify
production is straightforward - get your CO2 - compress it and cool it and then suddently expand it ( adiabatic expansion )
I really wondered why they were making such a meal of this
With dry ice these baths will never freeze solid, as pure methanol and ethanol both freeze below −78 °C (−98 °C and −114 °C respectively). Relative to traditional cooling baths, solvent mixtures are adaptable for a wide temperature range.
and a dewar flask
there is a chemist on AB who would be able to clarify
production is straightforward - get your CO2 - compress it and cool it and then suddently expand it ( adiabatic expansion )
I really wondered why they were making such a meal of this
All this points out the desirability of centralised storage for the vaccine due to the ULT requirements. Some very ingenious ways of solving these problems are being worked on 24/7. For example, UPS are busy building a ULT deep freeze "farm" in The Netherlands consisting of 600 freezers capable of holding about 50,000 vials of the vaccine at the right temperature. This facility will take vials produced in USA and Germany for European distribution.
Having said all the above, there remains some hope that alternative vaccines will not require such low storage temperatures. That would seem ideal, but I would point out that at the end of the day that it is the efficacy of any vaccine that is important and for now, that is still eluding us.
Having said all the above, there remains some hope that alternative vaccines will not require such low storage temperatures. That would seem ideal, but I would point out that at the end of the day that it is the efficacy of any vaccine that is important and for now, that is still eluding us.
THECORBYLOON, it's not my place to dispute or challenge anything that the relevant minister has said over these matters.
A "higher temperature" is meaningless and it would be inappropriate to comment without knowing the temperature someone had in mind.
The -70 degrees temperature has appeared in some documentation I've seen but the difference is insignificant for most purposes to be honest.
A "higher temperature" is meaningless and it would be inappropriate to comment without knowing the temperature someone had in mind.
The -70 degrees temperature has appeared in some documentation I've seen but the difference is insignificant for most purposes to be honest.
Peter Pedant, they've shifted these vials around the USA and Europe in suitcase sized containers that cost 5 grand apiece. The research facility I mooch around in took delivery of one (transported by UPS!) from the States yesterday. I've not seen it but the opinion here is that it's worth the cost.
An acetone/dry ice mix is a possibility, but I wouldn't exclude prop-2-ol/dry ice or liquid nitrogen/isoamyl acetate. All the same, red tape is horrendous in Europe when it comes to shifting stuff around like this.
An acetone/dry ice mix is a possibility, but I wouldn't exclude prop-2-ol/dry ice or liquid nitrogen/isoamyl acetate. All the same, red tape is horrendous in Europe when it comes to shifting stuff around like this.
The S of S said it could be at a higher temperature no more than four times. I'd have thought that if a vaccine is meant to be stored at -80°C but is stored at -70°C, that would have an impact on its efficacy
If folk think the vaccine can be at a temperature higher than -70/80°C for only forty-eight hours but you're saying it's up to five days, vaccine could end up being disposed of inappropriately.
If you'd rather not comment further, that's fine.
If folk think the vaccine can be at a temperature higher than -70/80°C for only forty-eight hours but you're saying it's up to five days, vaccine could end up being disposed of inappropriately.
If you'd rather not comment further, that's fine.
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