The Listener

[AB Editor]

Hi,

I have received an email from a guy associated with The Listener crossword.

The email itself is in reference to the stats which I know most of you are well aware of as you have referred to your own individual positions in the past.

I am going to post the email here later this afternoon.

However, before I do I would like to know your opinion -

Do you feel there are any issues related to people posting answers for The Listener crossword before the submission deadline?

Let me know your thoughts.
Thanks,
AB Ed

[rabet]

I wouldn't be happy with the thought of someone putting up answers but I think a hint towards themes etc is OK.

But there is a further complication ~ every day dozens of answers are posted for other competitions before deadlines have passed. I would not think it fair to treat the Listener as a "special case" simply because of the cachet attached to completing such a difficult puzzle.

[squarebear]

I see no problems with posting answers to ANY crossword or quiz. What's the point of a Q&A site if we are limited to what people can ask?

It shouldn't matter if the quiz/crossword has just come out. If people want help with them, then I for one, am only too happy to help.

[kayakamina]

Dear Ed

If you do go ahead with the posting I suggest you stand well back as the issue is just about the most contentious you will find on Quizzes & Puzzles.

There is about a fifty fifty split over whether clues (and heaven forbid) answers should be posted ahead of the deadline. Both sides hold very strong opinions and if your search facility was working, people could read the somertimes very personal comments made.

Chicken that I am I do the crossword and stay out of the arguments.

[Tichfield]

Well, I know that there are some people who feel that any discussion of a Listener crossword should be banned until at least the closing date for entries.

I don't subscribe to that view. The Listener crossword should be treated just like any other one. It is not a special case.

If discussion of the Listener crossword were to be banned then logic dictated that discussion of any "Prize" crossword should also be disallowed. But nonbody can enforce that, because there are lots and lots of places it can be done if people so wish.

I know Mr Green has said in the past that if open discussion does take place then the Listener Crossword might disappear. That's his right of course.

[Quizmonkey]

I have written on this subject many times before on AB - see my old posts - as I have very strong views on the subject. The Listener IS different, not because it's difficult or has any sort of cachet, but because of the marking system and the stats as mentioned. Personal records are manually kept of solvers' submissions, their errors, their no-shows etc - this has been the case for many years and is one of the delights of the puzzle.

The fact that someone now could complete a Listener who would not have been able to without AB is appalling and makes a mockery of this age-old-system (and the hours of work by the man concerned). In theory it could even corrupt the 'all-corrects' listings.

In short: AB should NOT publish any reference to the Listener until AFTER each closing date. Probably impossible to police but the fact that you've had a letter on the subject underlines the importance attached to the issue.

[Tichfield]

I fail to see how it is possible to stop discussion of something that appears in a National newspaper.

[squarebear]

Exactly, and if the compiler is going to throw his teddy out about it then so be it. There are plenty of other crosswords to complete.

[Quizmonkey]

"the compiler" ?? "other crosswords" ? Ed: you're going to have to cut through an awful lot of ignorance on this one :)

[squarebear]

My apologies. I assumed the Listener was a crossword and "Mr Green" was the compiler?

[Tichfield]

The Listener is a crossword, but Mr Green is not a compiler. He is the chap that receives the entries and correlates the statistics for the entrants.

Maybe this email is from somebody else altogether.
I expect all will become clearer when it is posted.

[rabet]

I have been a Listener solver, on-and-off, for many years and I know about the statistics and so on, but as I said before I do not object to hints. It's not like, for example, cheating in an exam and getting a degree you don't deserve. Furthermore, knowing that some people are getting a little help doesn't make the puzzle harder to solve for me.

There is also the consideration, which I think has been mentioned before, that giving a few hints to inexperienced solvers might help them to gain a better understanding of the way things work so that they eventually become more confident and can manage on their own.

As for threatening to withdraw the puzzle, I fail to see what good would be achieved by that course of action.

[squarebear]

In that case, I'm not sure what Quizmonkey was meaning by his "ignorance" jibe?

[mazie]

He's probably talking about me squarebear. I have no idea what the Listener is and where to find it!

[Quizmonkey]

You've 'assumed' a lot about something you know nothing about but are still attempting to contribute to the discussion. Hence ignorance.

[squarebear]

Then please enlighten me. As I see it, it's a crossword where you send it in and have a running total of how well you did.

Am I missing something?

[AB Editor]

Well this is the email I have received...

Dear Sir/Madam,

I am writing about answers which are being posted each week about the
Listener Crossword - which appears in The Times newspaper each Saturday.

The Listener crossword is a prize crossword which is widely regarded as
the most prestigious in the world, on account of its difficulty.
Solutions must be submitted within 10 days of its publication and, for
some puzzles, only a handful of correct solutions are received (For others
it is several hundred).

The Listener differs from every other crossword in one interesting
respect: statistics are maintained (manually) for every single entry
received for every single puzzle. This unbelievably arduous task has been
undertaken by one man for over 20 years. He is not paid
to do this but does it (as the person before him did it) for love of one
of this country's quirky but great institutions....

[AB Editor]

...He uses the data to produce a list of annual statistics which is
cherished by most Listener solvers: these statisics reveal each solver's
performance against his/her peers for the year and contain a personal
error list explaining not only which puzzles were wrong but exactly which
errors were made. This work has taken him between 5 and 6 hours a day, every day,
for over two decades.

Unfortunately he is now considering giving up what is, in essence, his life's work.
The reason is that he does not see the point in maintaining these records if people are able to simply find
the right page on theanswerbank, use the information therein, and send in
a "correct" solution. He is concerned (understandably) that his
statistics cease to have any real meaning if people can use the web to be
told the answer.

I do not know if this is possible or whether you would consider it, but I
am writing to ask you if you could prevent threads discussing the Listener
crossword from appearing until after the closing date for that crossword.
(The answers are not published by The Times until three weeks after the
crossword appears so people could still use theanswerbank to discover
solutions prior to them appearing in print. However the integrity of the
statistics would be maintained and John's work would continue.)

[AB Editor]

So what do you think?

[Quizmonkey]

Glad to see that it reflects my thoughts and feelings precisely - as I have attempted to explain (mostly to ABers who do not read or listen to reasoned explanations) so many times before. I sincerely hope that AB will comply with this polite, well argued and sensible request.

[JoolsTwo]

I don't do Listener Crossword, so this doesn't concern me either way. But I've been reading all the comments and the letter and I think that if it is at all possible discussion of the Listener should be stopped until after the closing date has passed. New solvers can still learn from discussions that take place after the closing date and then have a go when they feel they are ready too.