A ‘Point Of View’

[allenlondon]

Bernardine Evaristo on today’s BBC R4 ‘Point of view’ :

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000ptc9

I like her writing, mostly I like her views, but not today.

She talks about women’s bodies and society’s attitudes to them. But her conclusions go astray, in my opinion. She does not criticise women wearing ‘sexy’ clothes or make-up, only that models for this sort of costume are habitually thin!

This jumps the gun. The first question must be “should women (or men) have to titillate themselves, to decorate their faces and bodies for whatever reason?” I know women who have never worn make-up, who have never worn revealing clothes - normal women, in other words.

Evaristo seems to have thrown in her lot with the ‘can’t beat them so join them’ stream of feminist consciousness, which is a great shame.

[Old_Geezer]

It's more " want" than "have".
But accepted peer pressure has an affect.

[Zacs-Master]

Most women (and men) I know don’t ‘titillate’ (hideously outmoded phrase, btw) themselves because they ‘have’ to but because they ‘want’ to and enjoy the confidence this gives them plus the admiring comments.

I think your point actually ‘jumps the gun’ as to why people wear nice clothes and put on makeup.

[allenlondon]

I wonder if anyone will actually listen to the 12 minute broadcast and comment on IT, rather than on my choice of words?

[drmorgans]

I listened to it and thought her point was that women and girls (in particular) are judged to standards of looks that are unattainable. "Perfect" models wear makeup and have their photos enhanced, so they don't actually look like they pictured.

[woofgang]

women (and men) don't have to .....I think you mean "titivate" not tilillate....themselves.....and who are you to judge what is normal?

I agree with her. Mainstream high fashion has, for a long time, been designed around an androgynous body shape....pretty much since the 1920's

I would say though in real life things are changing in some ways. I am in my 60's and when I was a teen, I was the odd one out because I never wore makeup or styled my hair beyond having it cut. Got to say that it never bothered me what other people thought.

[pastafreak]

I consider myself a normal woman...and I've always worn makeup. My mum and older sister did too...but only lipstick and a bit of 'rouge' as mum called it.
I used to enjoy playing with colours...particularly with my eyes. Maybe that was just another aspect of my desire to be creative. This was back in the 60s. It certainly wasn't a political or feminist thing for me. It was because I liked it.
Women...and men in many cultures...have always adorned themselves. Sometimes accepted...sometimes deemed cheap, common, or something the lower orders did.

[allenlondon]

Yes to most points (although I think she nodded in the direction of young men also being caught up in this nonsense),

I wrote titillate. Oxford defines it as ‘to arouse to interest or mild excitement, especially through sexually suggestive images or words.’ ‘Titivate’ doesn’t carry the same suggestive element, I believe.

Who am I? Nobody at all, just a bloke, life-long (well, quite long) feminist, with an interest in how young people (especially girls) are conned and exploited into believing that their appearance is all-important, their brains far less so, and hearing a leading light like Evaristo lauding a millionaire pop star for her unimpressive ‘feminist’ credentials strikes me as not a forward step!

A

[Canary42]

An interesting little sermon, but as you implied, she appears to support the fashion industry, merely complaining that its targets are wrong.

It all comes down to commerce and the greed philosophy, where Marketeers generate demand through insidious propaganda, thereby making vast profits from totally unnecessary products. It emphasises and exploits people's insecurities - does my bum look big in this - is my penis big enough - how can I stop going bald - should I shave my legs - and so on. And now that the world has been taken over by global corporates, it will only get worse as the weaker masses go all out to achieve the current "fashion" relentlessly invading our lives.

[woofgang]

allenlondon"I know women who have never worn make-up, who have never worn revealing clothes - normal women, in other words. "

I still wonder what gives you the right to define normal

[allenlondon]

Yes, canary, and my point is that Evaristo seems to be confused in her attack. The system NEEDS attacking, but she seems to be pointing her guns the wrong way.

[allenlondon]

Well, woofgang, please reread my final paragraph from 13.23.

Not a ‘right’ - just a (valid) point of view.

[mushroom25]

// just a (valid) point of view. //

that's an interesting comment - why the word "valid"? aren't all points of view valid? what would be an "invalid" point of view?

[douglas9401]

"what would be an "invalid" point of view?"

One given from a sick-bed?

[allenlondon]

Ah, good question.

I suppose because of the attempt I made at justifying myself, which I hoped turned it in to a ‘validated’ reason rather than ‘because I said so’!

[allenlondon]

I see. The daft squad has turned up...

[andy-hughes]

allen - // I see. The daft squad has turned up... /

Once again, you cannot dictate who or who does not respond to your thread, or apply an arbitrary level of 'common sense' to posters.

You get what you get - if you don't like what you get - then don't post!

[allenlondon]

Gordon bennett, not just the dafties, then.

[Mamyalynne]

Her piece is reasonable and all too familiar, similar has been said and written certainly throughout my lifetime, she (as others have) counters it by mentioning those in various industries that strive to knock the stereotypes aside.

This works to an extent but the very best we can do as parents or guardians is to teach the young to be independent in thought and be the best they can be regardless of shape or adornments, in sort train them to be confident of who they are.

[AuntPollyGrey]

Allen I think you will find most 'normal' women enjoy wearing nice clothes and makeup and do it to make themselves feel good, not others. Most Females today, disregarding of course those shackled by religious rules, conduct themselves according to their own standards, not those of men. I know you are of a different generation but dear me you have no idea how women conduct themselves in the 21st Century

[royfromaus]

I know women who have never worn make-up, who have never worn revealing clothes - normal women, in other words.
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Wowser!