The hooligan rears his ugly head again

[sft42]

surely now it's time for the international community in the form of UEFA and FIFA to act and ban the english team from all future competitions until that countries FA can give assurancies that they will not act in the repellant manner they feel they can get away with everytime their country plays abroad.

It's shameful and disgusting behaviour and I can see how anyone can defend it.

For anyone not aware of the latest repugant actions of the england supporters click here http://www.itv.com/news/1398119.html and not content with wrecking other countries they ran amok at home as well http://icsouthlondon.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/nati
onalnews/tm_objectid=14330942&method=full&siteid=50100&headline=83-held-as-england-fans-riot-name_page.html

[brawburd]

Unbelievable responses to a straightforward question. I hesitated to post in case I was accused of being a Scottish stirrer. There was NOTHING in the question that suggested any kind of inter-nation baiting. There were no comparisons made with Scotland or any other country. These assumptions have been made defensively by those replying. I find it very objectionable that someone can't have a view on morally repugnant football hooliganism just because of their nationality - that's racist folks.

[Tj]

"There were no comparisons made with Scotland or any other country." I can only assume brawburd that you either haven't read other people's replies, or haven't realised that sft42 posted the question and then posted several follow-ups himself. He has posted several comparisons to Scotland, and it was those I was replying to. "I find it very objectionable that someone can't have a view on morally repugnant football hooliganism just because of their nationality" No one has said anything of the kind. I suggested to sft42 that a racist shouldn't critisise others for racism, but that had nothing to do with his nationality. If you assumed it did, that must make you a racist. ;o) If none of your comments were addressed to me, I apologise.

[snaykz]

To be fair, I can see by the tone of the question and replies from the same user, why someone would question the motives of this question being asked. Given the hatred Sft 42 has displayed towards the English in the past, it's not surprising that people have reacted in the way they have. I'm sure if the question had been posted by a different person, it would have received different answers.

[sft42]

Indeed, as I have already said, it's not my fault that these idiot go on a drunken rampage is it? The tone of my question was totally factual and based on news reports and used no hyperbole. I simply think it's high time after years of being allowed to terrorise many different countries that they are taught a lesson....remove their team from the tournament and ban them from the next world cup and european championships. Perhaps then and only then the will learn to behave.

The term hatred has been used to describe my attitude towards the english....this is sadly over the mark by people over-reacting to comments at my disgust at the continual bombardment of the "engerland" culture in the run up to these tournaments.....I have no problem with individual english people but the media hype and spin would try the patience of a saint.

[sft42]

Furthermore Tj the comparisons were started, not by me but another on the thread so I merely reciprocated to show how truly appaling englands disciplinary record really is at international level.....as for telling me to grow up then perhaps this extract from a study by the Social Issues Research Centre in Oxford will prove my thoughts on the matter are far from juvenille.

In contrast to the study by Armstrong and Harris, the work of Richard Giulianotti on Scottish fans is far more theory-based and substantially more detailed. His research with Scottish football fans, at home and in other countries such as Sweden, has highlighted the inapplicability of much of the research conducted in England, and the theoretical perspectives associated with it. Rather than football violence stemming from social structural factors, Giulianotti argues that Scottish football fan behaviour derives from specific cultural and historical forces. This, in turn, distinguishes the 'friendly' Scottish fans quite sharply from their English 'hooligan' peers. In a recent paper he notes the fact that 5,000 fans, known as 'The Tartan Army', won the UEFA 'Fair Play' award in 1992 for their friendly and sporting conduct.²⁰ This appeared to represent a distinct cultural change in the activities of Scottish fans since their pitch invasion after a match against England at Wembley in 1977 and the removal of the goalposts.

[sft42]

Prior to 1980 Scottish fans were seen as exemplars of the heavy drinking, macho style of hooligans whose pitched battles were amongst the bloodiest in Britain. Alcohol, rather than divisive social issues, was generally viewed by the authorities and some social scientists as being the primary ingredient for transforming relatively ordinary supporters into mindless thugs. Many of these fans also relied for part of their identity on being 'harder' than the English fans, and clashes between the two groups were common. This image of Scottish fans, or 'sub-discourse' in Giulianotti's terms ' detracted from more meaningful examination of the roots of hooligan behaviour, to be found partly in religious sectarianism.

[sft42]

After 1980 a distinct change occurred ' a new sub-discourse. Increasingly, Scottish fans sought to distance themselves from the 'British hooligan' label and particularly from the unruly behaviour of English fans abroad. Having been prevented from playing their biennial matches against England at Wembley, following the small problem with the demolition of the goal posts, they constructed a quite novel way of maintaining a sense of dominance over them.

'Spurred on by the popular stereotypification of the antithetical English fan as instrumental soccer hooligan, and the international debate on subsequently penalizing English soccer which tended to conflate English and British fans, Scottish fans coated themselves, with the brush of the authorities and the media, in a friendly and internationalist patina ...'

In other words, Scottish fans sought to beat their historical foes by being nice! In this they certainly succeeded.....finding considerable satisfaction in this new image, the role of heavy drinking among Scottish fans now took on a new twist. Alcohol consumption did not decline with the rise of the 'friendly' image. Rather, the meaning of drinking was radically transformed. Instead of it being a precursor of violence it was held to predispose friendly interaction and sociability, particularly towards strangers abroad, but possibly with the exception of the English.

[darth vader]

I would just like to say that whilst you have all been sounding off about the problems of modern day football you have all failed to spot the one major and single most important occurence which has happened in this thread - quizmonster posted an opinion which has absolutely nothing to do with the english dictionary, words or phrases! i have been waiting 18 months for this to happen and now it has, AB cannot get any better so i must now commit myself to the scrapheap of AB knowledge (which should put a smile on vittoria's face) and change my name to Rebecca. btw i think we should stop all our hate and fighting amongst the english/scots and other border disputes, and put our full support behind Latvia cos they need it. ps the answer is Nebraska

[rogersaurus]

Reports from Portugal suggest that 400 fans were involved, 200 of which were English. Therefore, plenty of rival fans, but they weren't fighting each other, they were fighting the riot police. I wasn't in Portugal so I don't know exactly what happened, but it is possible that the policing was responsible. During World Cup '98, I was in a popular European holiday resort (not in France). After England beat Columbia, many England fans took to the streets in celebration. We sung and chanted and marched through the streets (not in residential areas). We even passed by the Scottish bars and engaged in some banter, but it was all very peaceful despite there being hundreds of fans there. Then after a while, we were ambushed by the riot police who had been watching us for the past hour without saying a word. They marched through the middle of us in formation without warning. I was grabbed around the neck and thrown to the side of the road. My friend was hit with a baton. Given the shock of this, the crowd had largely dispersed. But then came the tear gas. To this day we have no idea what prompted such a harsh response. Only one person was given a warning, for trying to climb a lamp post. There was no violence of any kind all night, other than that of the police. If the fans in Portugal were treated in the same way, I wouldn't be surprised if they reacted badly. I think that the problem is that some foreign police aren't uesd to fans singing and chanting as loud as the English do, and maybe some of them get intimidated by this and decide to act. In my case 6 years ago, they'd have been better waiting another half an hour until everyone had got bored and gone back to their hotels. As I say, I wasn't in Portugal so maybe something else happened, but the reports suggest that the police didn't help matters. As for the vandals back home, do us all a favour and lock them up. Bloody idiots.

[Tj]

Yet your rapid and extensive replies comparing English fans to Scottish fans reveal your true motives for asking the question. I'm sure you were rubbing your hands with delight when you saw the news reports, thinking to yourself "now I can post all that anti-English propaganda I've been saving up". As another poster implied, from you these comments mean very little as it just seems like this week's piece of English-bashing from sft42. You've built a rod for your own back, and that is why some people are unwilling to discuss matters like this with you. How come, for example, you aren't demanding sanctions against Turkish, Italian and German sides, the fans of whom have all committed similar acts in the last 5 or 6 years. Sadly, I think we all know the answer to that one.

[miteyboosh]

when the person said wembley goalpost u were like a wippit with a rocket up its bum and posted lots of pre prepaired answers about england v scotland fans just like u wanted i bet u would luv to see more trouble by england fans just so england get kicked out u don't like english people why talk to us?go to a rasist website.

[brawburd]

I think LeMarchand got it right! Tj - apology accepted, and of course I read the thread! I think it's sad that it quickly became a personal attack on sft - for the following reasons ..... Loadsamoney promptly started the England/ Scotland debate, with no discussion of the facts of the question. "Racism" - no, Tj wasn't referring to you, was again referring to the general tone started by loadsamoney that implied being Scottish means you can't comment on English hooliganism. And in the end, whatever sft's intentions were or weren't when posting this question, the main point remains the same - football hooliganism is wrong, and I would be ashamed of any Scottish fan involvement. In attacking sft many of the postings seem to be defending hooliganism - hope I'm wrong and there is more integrity on AB.

[brawburd]

QM ROCKS!

[Tj]

Thanks brawburd, maybe I jumped the gun there. I was responding to sft's comments, not directly to his question. Of course sft is entitled to his opinion, its just that his posts do seem somewhat premeditated if you know what I mean. If that is the case, it is natural to question his motives, which is what people have tried to do. I don't think anyone has intended to defend the hooligans.

[IggyB]

wheres michael winner when you need him - Clam down dear its only a commercial (venture based loosely around some chaps kicking a small ball around a play ground). oh and for the record i blame the parents ..... thank you and good night

[sft42]

As I already stated my answers were rapid (and how would you know Tj as you didn't post for the first few hours....or are you relying on heresay from other posters?) simply because I was sitting at the PC and the info I was looking for to quote from was very easy found.

The reason I haven't called for any sanctions against any other countries is simply that with the exception of the high profile turkish/leeds episode I am not aware of any other trouble...if the other countries have as long a list and the violence is comparable then obviously the same sanctions should apply....the engerland nonsense is impossible to escape as it's rammed down your throat.......miteyboosh (sic) regardless of your believeing this or not (or anyone else for that matter) I had no prepared answers for this question....I was well aware that some people would think that simply because it was me posting the question that they would jump to the wrong conclusion...the fact that some people can't be big enough and just completely condemn this is sad and blinkered.

Regardless of who posted the question the point remains when you look at the long list of english violence abroad at football tournaments isn't it time that the team were banned as this seems the only threat that will stop the violence and terror these idiots cause every other summer?

[Gef]

I've no idea what sft is talking about. There is no evidence to suggest that any England fan who bought a ticket, officailly, through the FA has been in any trouble. Eufa decided to sell some, to any idiot, on the internet.

[Quizmonster]

"Three minutes away", TJ, is a lifetime in footballing terms. Think of the recent final of the rugby union World Cup, for example. In addition, a few years back, Bayern M�nich - I seem to remember, as I actually have little time for soccer - were "three minutes away" or even less from winning something...the European Cup?...but Manchester United then did much the same as the French did in Portugal the other day.

My point about England's football standing is that they seem capable of making it to the last eight - even four perhaps - but that's about it. Well...this the last third of a century seems to have confirmed. So, why don't their fans "get it"?

[kags]

What a wasted opportunity to discuss a topical and serious matter rationally and sensibly. If the question setter is going to be accused of goading others into responding in a hostile manner, then loadsamoney should be similarly accused of goading a response by bringing up a subject that had not been mentioned in the question. This was, in my opinion, a personal attack and got the desired response. Rogersauraus's response, which IS sensible and balanced has been lost in the mire. What a shame.

[nedflanders]

Same old excuses 1.It wasn't us that started it. 2. The police were heavy handed. 3.No evidence any england fans who bought tickets=Uefa's fault. eh? What difference does that make if they have a ticket or not! As i said before 80,000 Celtic fans went to seville last year around 50,000 never had tickets but still behaved. Why can't these knucklescrapers just go and enjoy themselves without getting into a ruck with the riot police. Seems they were at it again last night. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3810783.stm