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if you live by the sword......
ok a bit radical but effective,
a one month amnesty for these wasters who have guns in their possession,
then if found with one....
they are lined up against a wall and shot with it,
qiute simple,
dont want to die?
neither do we, so give up the guns!
these people are absolutely no use in a civilised society and their demise will be a benefit to us all
there can be no mitigation by the lefty lot in society for these people,
starting here lets clear the rubbish
a one month amnesty for these wasters who have guns in their possession,
then if found with one....
they are lined up against a wall and shot with it,
qiute simple,
dont want to die?
neither do we, so give up the guns!
these people are absolutely no use in a civilised society and their demise will be a benefit to us all
there can be no mitigation by the lefty lot in society for these people,
starting here lets clear the rubbish
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Sorry if this is a bit off subject, helpmetoo but I feel the need to comment on the football violence.
I hope you feel proud of your past, Mr Ben, It was idiotic behaviour like yours that caused fences to be erected in football grounds in this country and was a major reason why 90 people died at Hillsborough. What a legacy to bear.
I hope you feel proud of your past, Mr Ben, It was idiotic behaviour like yours that caused fences to be erected in football grounds in this country and was a major reason why 90 people died at Hillsborough. What a legacy to bear.
Splat (Hello m'dear!) and Whiffey are both right I think.
Whiffey is right to say that regardless of age or race people know that to intentionally hurt/maime(sp)/kill is wrong and the punishments should be severe. (Capital punishment is not a deterrent, I don't advocate that, look at America, it's not worked there).
Splat is right to say that looking at the causes might help us in eliminating the problem.
Somewhere within those two opinions I believe lies the answer... If I figure it out I'll let you know and get a dress for my OBE.
Whiffey is right to say that regardless of age or race people know that to intentionally hurt/maime(sp)/kill is wrong and the punishments should be severe. (Capital punishment is not a deterrent, I don't advocate that, look at America, it's not worked there).
Splat is right to say that looking at the causes might help us in eliminating the problem.
Somewhere within those two opinions I believe lies the answer... If I figure it out I'll let you know and get a dress for my OBE.
Apologies... Kitchen cleaning called.
In response to your direct question Whiffey, as I stated on a previous thread, I honestly don't know what the answer is.
Would I want to inflict some form of physical pain on the little bu88er? Yes, quite possibly. But it's a knee jerk reaction with little to no point other than to make me feel better. It's not going to beat any sense in to him and it's not going to solve the bigger problem and it sure as hell isn't going to bring the person they killed back.... but I digress again...
I agree with you, I think that there needs to be a tougher deterrant. Personally, a crime like that I think should carry a minimum of twenty years. And that twenty years at least should be served. You stole someone elses life so in consequence you pay with your youth. I think at the age of eighteen they should be moved to an adult prison.
However in that twenty years I think they should be forced to get some kind of education/qualification/something that would make them even remotely useful when they get out.
But there are people on here that will say this is too leniant (sp). So how do you please them as well?
(And even if my view point was the case I'm sure you'd still end up having to look at cases like this individually and the circumstances around it. I don't know enough about law but I suspect a blanket kind of law on this probably wouldn't work. But that's probably another thread and another digression).
In response to your direct question Whiffey, as I stated on a previous thread, I honestly don't know what the answer is.
Would I want to inflict some form of physical pain on the little bu88er? Yes, quite possibly. But it's a knee jerk reaction with little to no point other than to make me feel better. It's not going to beat any sense in to him and it's not going to solve the bigger problem and it sure as hell isn't going to bring the person they killed back.... but I digress again...
I agree with you, I think that there needs to be a tougher deterrant. Personally, a crime like that I think should carry a minimum of twenty years. And that twenty years at least should be served. You stole someone elses life so in consequence you pay with your youth. I think at the age of eighteen they should be moved to an adult prison.
However in that twenty years I think they should be forced to get some kind of education/qualification/something that would make them even remotely useful when they get out.
But there are people on here that will say this is too leniant (sp). So how do you please them as well?
(And even if my view point was the case I'm sure you'd still end up having to look at cases like this individually and the circumstances around it. I don't know enough about law but I suspect a blanket kind of law on this probably wouldn't work. But that's probably another thread and another digression).
I still say its mostly down to people from other countries bringing their ways of life here.
I agree with Mrspattypaws and capital punishment sohuld be brought back for major repeat offenders, paedofiles and rapists.
These are the sort of people where the do-gooders rehabilitation system doesnt work.
Also i think teachers should be given more powers in schools.
Chinadoll its nice to know your priortiy's are in the kitchen ;)
I agree with Mrspattypaws and capital punishment sohuld be brought back for major repeat offenders, paedofiles and rapists.
These are the sort of people where the do-gooders rehabilitation system doesnt work.
Also i think teachers should be given more powers in schools.
Chinadoll its nice to know your priortiy's are in the kitchen ;)
Repeat offenders of what MrBEn? Not hooliganism? Maybe under your system people who have been figting at football matches could have there tongues cut out and their hands and feet cut off, that would stop that violence.
Its quite funny though, that you moan about the foreigners coming over here and committing violent acts and you go over to a different country and do the same thing but justify it because it was over something as important as football.
Its quite funny though, that you moan about the foreigners coming over here and committing violent acts and you go over to a different country and do the same thing but justify it because it was over something as important as football.
Huh? what are you on about Good(double standards)soulette. I have never gone looking for trouble anywhere i go.
I just seemed to have been in the wrong place at the wrong time.
The question isnt about my lifestyle its about should people who use weapons on other people be treat the same anyway.
Repeat offenders of a serious criminal act is what i was on about. Surely you cant believe that repeat offenders can be rehablitated?
I know you always look for the good in people and you dont think paedofiles and murderers should be locked up, but its some peoples way of life to carry a weapon around. No matter what you say to them, they will still do it.
The honest citizens of this country need to be protected from these people, and locking them up (or the death penalty) is the only way of keeping your kids safe.
I am pretty surprised at you actually as you have a 6 year old son...
I just seemed to have been in the wrong place at the wrong time.
The question isnt about my lifestyle its about should people who use weapons on other people be treat the same anyway.
Repeat offenders of a serious criminal act is what i was on about. Surely you cant believe that repeat offenders can be rehablitated?
I know you always look for the good in people and you dont think paedofiles and murderers should be locked up, but its some peoples way of life to carry a weapon around. No matter what you say to them, they will still do it.
The honest citizens of this country need to be protected from these people, and locking them up (or the death penalty) is the only way of keeping your kids safe.
I am pretty surprised at you actually as you have a 6 year old son...
I Was just innocently picking flowers outside the stadium....when we were attacked by the locals with their pitchforks. I have been to many football matches, here, in Italy and in France and have never, seen or been involved with anyone in fight.
Where have I ever said I dont think people shouldnt be locked up? I just dont see how you can promote a civilised society if we start hanging 14 year old boys.
Where have I ever said I dont think people shouldnt be locked up? I just dont see how you can promote a civilised society if we start hanging 14 year old boys.
What people fail to grasp (conveniently) is that there are more factors to gun crime than race.
Much more.
Poverty, poor schooling and poor education are factors too.
Hogwash sp1814
I get fed up with the same lame excuses.
Poverty what poverty? None needs to live in poverty, with all the benefits that are available these days.
Poor Schooling and Poor Education are one of the same surely? We operate a state education system in this country, so therefore one should be able to enjoy an adequate education if one chooses.
Years ago there was plenty of poverty, before the Welfare State was introduced, yet there was practically no gun or knife crime then. In fact most Young Lads carried both sheath knives and pen knives, but they were never used in acts of violence, but they were useful to make yourself a bow and arrow, once again you did not use this in violence. The only guns we had were match-stick guns and spud guns, apart from the usual Air Weapons, once again never used in violence.
Not to be seen as racist though (perish the thought) I must agree with MrBen5 that immigrants/foreign nationals must shoulder the responsibility for the increase in gun and knife crimes. In America during the 20s & 30s it was mainly those of Italian desent. In this country in the 50s and 60s it was mainly Greeks & Cypriots.
But now we have seen so many peoples of different cultures and values settle in this country. While this can to to some degree add to the essence of a country, we are now beginning to experience the downside of uncontrolled immigration.
We must now ask ourselves is the positive side worth the negative side?
Much more.
Poverty, poor schooling and poor education are factors too.
Hogwash sp1814
I get fed up with the same lame excuses.
Poverty what poverty? None needs to live in poverty, with all the benefits that are available these days.
Poor Schooling and Poor Education are one of the same surely? We operate a state education system in this country, so therefore one should be able to enjoy an adequate education if one chooses.
Years ago there was plenty of poverty, before the Welfare State was introduced, yet there was practically no gun or knife crime then. In fact most Young Lads carried both sheath knives and pen knives, but they were never used in acts of violence, but they were useful to make yourself a bow and arrow, once again you did not use this in violence. The only guns we had were match-stick guns and spud guns, apart from the usual Air Weapons, once again never used in violence.
Not to be seen as racist though (perish the thought) I must agree with MrBen5 that immigrants/foreign nationals must shoulder the responsibility for the increase in gun and knife crimes. In America during the 20s & 30s it was mainly those of Italian desent. In this country in the 50s and 60s it was mainly Greeks & Cypriots.
But now we have seen so many peoples of different cultures and values settle in this country. While this can to to some degree add to the essence of a country, we are now beginning to experience the downside of uncontrolled immigration.
We must now ask ourselves is the positive side worth the negative side?
anotheoldgit
Can you pleas clarify what the mods and rockers were up to down in seaside resorts in the late sixties.
I'm lead to believe that they got into knife fights, but I may be wrong...was it just picnics?
Furthermore, you know in the old gin palaces in South London (Bermondsey) throughout the late 19th and early 20th century...were they used for sewing circles?
Perhaps you could illuminate me.
Poverty breeds crime. To blame all seriouas crime on immigrants is nonsense. And I hate to use the word because I know how it comes across...but it is racist.
You are way too intelligent to trot that one out.
anotheoldgit - I thought that even with your right wing credentials you had the education to spot a doozy when it was being sold to you.
I'm sad to see you falling for this one. I can't tell you how much your post has disappointed me...
I won't respond any more to this thread, because you're saying that there was "no serious violent crime before the immigrants came here" and that I find personally insulting, and you know why.
I'm signing off this one now. I don't like the tone of what's being said and knw that you, MrBen5 and I will never agree on this.
Can you pleas clarify what the mods and rockers were up to down in seaside resorts in the late sixties.
I'm lead to believe that they got into knife fights, but I may be wrong...was it just picnics?
Furthermore, you know in the old gin palaces in South London (Bermondsey) throughout the late 19th and early 20th century...were they used for sewing circles?
Perhaps you could illuminate me.
Poverty breeds crime. To blame all seriouas crime on immigrants is nonsense. And I hate to use the word because I know how it comes across...but it is racist.
You are way too intelligent to trot that one out.
anotheoldgit - I thought that even with your right wing credentials you had the education to spot a doozy when it was being sold to you.
I'm sad to see you falling for this one. I can't tell you how much your post has disappointed me...
I won't respond any more to this thread, because you're saying that there was "no serious violent crime before the immigrants came here" and that I find personally insulting, and you know why.
I'm signing off this one now. I don't like the tone of what's being said and knw that you, MrBen5 and I will never agree on this.
Great to hear that we don't have poverty or poor education in this country. That'll be a weight off Gordon's mind.
People do seem to have a problem with violent youths at the moment don't they? Not that this is anything new.
Remember a few years ago? People were up in arms about unruly youths who were responsible for huge amounts of street violence. We were demanding that we build more prisons to solve the problem. Only we weren't calling them 'hoodies'. Back in the 90s, we were calling them 'scuttlers' or 'peaky blinders'.
The 1890s, that is.
And without wanting to derail anyone's 'This country is going to dogs' whinge, remember that the current number of stabbings and shootings is significantly lower than it was 10 years ago.
People do seem to have a problem with violent youths at the moment don't they? Not that this is anything new.
Remember a few years ago? People were up in arms about unruly youths who were responsible for huge amounts of street violence. We were demanding that we build more prisons to solve the problem. Only we weren't calling them 'hoodies'. Back in the 90s, we were calling them 'scuttlers' or 'peaky blinders'.
The 1890s, that is.
And without wanting to derail anyone's 'This country is going to dogs' whinge, remember that the current number of stabbings and shootings is significantly lower than it was 10 years ago.
Never remember any Mods or Rockers killing each other, perhaps a scar or two, but then this was just a trophy wound just as a sabre scar was to the Germanics.
I don't think we need go that far back in history to the Gin Palaces of South London in the late 19th and early 20th century, to try and prove a point sp1814, it is called clutching at straws, and doesn't do you justice.
Poverty breeds crime??? I ask you again what poverty? The fact that one can only afford one oversea's holiday a year? The fact that one's missis cannot own a car of her own? The fact that one cannot afford the latest Home Theatre Projector? Yeh! that is poverty.
In closing I notice that you have reverted back to your old trick of misquoting me once again. I have never said "no serious violent crime before the immigrants came here"
I don't think we need go that far back in history to the Gin Palaces of South London in the late 19th and early 20th century, to try and prove a point sp1814, it is called clutching at straws, and doesn't do you justice.
Poverty breeds crime??? I ask you again what poverty? The fact that one can only afford one oversea's holiday a year? The fact that one's missis cannot own a car of her own? The fact that one cannot afford the latest Home Theatre Projector? Yeh! that is poverty.
In closing I notice that you have reverted back to your old trick of misquoting me once again. I have never said "no serious violent crime before the immigrants came here"
According to Oxfam:
How many people in the UK live in poverty?
Just under 1 in 4 people in the UK � or nearly 13 million people � live in poverty, according to the latest figures. This includes nearly 1 in 3 children (almost 4 million).
How were these figures calculated?
Poverty is measured here as below 60 per cent of contemporary median net disposable income in 2000/01. This is the �poverty line� which has been accepted recently across the European Union to measure the extent of poverty in member states.
These figures don�t mean very much by themselves -- they only refer to low incomes relative to the rest of the population in the UK.
What kinds of poverty are people living in?
One recent survey showed that about 6.5 million adults go without essential clothing, such as a warm waterproof coat, because of lack of money.
Over 10.5 million people live in financial insecurity: they can�t afford to save, insure their house contents, or spend even small amounts on themselves. About 9.5 million can�t afford adequate housing � heated, free from damp, and in a decent state of decoration.
We also know what a dark shadow poverty casts, particularly over children�s lives and their futures. Eighteen per cent of children go without two or more items that the majority of the population says are necessities, such as adequate clothing, toys, or three meals a day.
One in five non-working families on low or moderate incomes reported being unable to afford some basic food items on most days in 2000.
Children from poor homes are more likely to die as a baby or a child, and have lower life expectancy overall. They also have a greater likelihood of bad health, a greater risk of unemployment, and a lower chance of high educational achievement.
How many people in the UK live in poverty?
Just under 1 in 4 people in the UK � or nearly 13 million people � live in poverty, according to the latest figures. This includes nearly 1 in 3 children (almost 4 million).
How were these figures calculated?
Poverty is measured here as below 60 per cent of contemporary median net disposable income in 2000/01. This is the �poverty line� which has been accepted recently across the European Union to measure the extent of poverty in member states.
These figures don�t mean very much by themselves -- they only refer to low incomes relative to the rest of the population in the UK.
What kinds of poverty are people living in?
One recent survey showed that about 6.5 million adults go without essential clothing, such as a warm waterproof coat, because of lack of money.
Over 10.5 million people live in financial insecurity: they can�t afford to save, insure their house contents, or spend even small amounts on themselves. About 9.5 million can�t afford adequate housing � heated, free from damp, and in a decent state of decoration.
We also know what a dark shadow poverty casts, particularly over children�s lives and their futures. Eighteen per cent of children go without two or more items that the majority of the population says are necessities, such as adequate clothing, toys, or three meals a day.
One in five non-working families on low or moderate incomes reported being unable to afford some basic food items on most days in 2000.
Children from poor homes are more likely to die as a baby or a child, and have lower life expectancy overall. They also have a greater likelihood of bad health, a greater risk of unemployment, and a lower chance of high educational achievement.
Haggisdj
I appreciate someone who knows the truth which was denied by the official enquiry. My point was that if it wasn't the history of football violence fences would not been erected inside grounds to prevent it.
This was a major contributary factor in the deaths. There was no escape route. I didn't say it was the only cause.
I appreciate someone who knows the truth which was denied by the official enquiry. My point was that if it wasn't the history of football violence fences would not been erected inside grounds to prevent it.
This was a major contributary factor in the deaths. There was no escape route. I didn't say it was the only cause.
Goodsoulette
I feel we are missing an opportunity here.
Consider these two scenarios
1. Young man joins steet gang. Engages in mindless, pointless violence against other gangs and anyone who gets in the way. A lot of people end up dead and seriously injured.
2. Young man joins gang( football hooligans). Engages in mindless, pointless violence. Not so many people killed but some seriously injured.
I see a parallel here, so perhaps Mr Ben would be able to enlighten us what motivates those who decide to indulge in mindless, pointless violence.
I feel we are missing an opportunity here.
Consider these two scenarios
1. Young man joins steet gang. Engages in mindless, pointless violence against other gangs and anyone who gets in the way. A lot of people end up dead and seriously injured.
2. Young man joins gang( football hooligans). Engages in mindless, pointless violence. Not so many people killed but some seriously injured.
I see a parallel here, so perhaps Mr Ben would be able to enlighten us what motivates those who decide to indulge in mindless, pointless violence.
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