Just How Long Are People Going To Put Up With This?

[New Judge]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-55771996

People who queued for two hours after driving 20 miles to get milk from a farm's vending machine have been fined for breaching lockdown rules.

“All of Wales remains under level four "stay at home" lockdown rules, with people only allowed to travel for essential reasons, which include buying food.

Welsh Government guidance on the rules say there are "no limits on how far" people can travel to shop for essential items,…”

I haven't fully digested the Welsh legislation but from the above passage it seems, once again, police are issuing fixed penalties when no law has been broken.

[bobbinwales]

Agree 100% with canary.
Doubt very much that this was a simple case of driving 20 miles just to buy milk.
Hopefully the govt will change the wording of the regulations if it really does say theres "no limits on how far" people can travel to shop for essential items,…” .

[Sunk]

Imagine a complete germaphobe wants a bottle of milk.

He can go to the nearest big supermarket and mingle with 300 other lactophiles, get in a queue, and be served and handed change from a stranger.

or

He can drive to a remote farm, use a automatic vending machine, see no people, get change from no one and go home in his car.

In terms of a good Covid avoidance strategy, the farm shop is safest for everyone.

[woofgang]

except it wasn't because part of the problem was no covid secure behaviour

[bobbinwales]

^ but whatever the law says the spirit of the rules or guidance isnt clear. There there to slow down the spread of a dreadful virus which spreads easily with serious consiquences- there not there as something to try push against or try to get round by the selfish or those who think its clever

[bobbinwales]

Do you really believe people drive 20 miles just to get milk, then maybe drive 20 miles to get bread, then 20 miles for beans. You know its nonsense sunk- you can do all your shopping in one go when a supermarkets quiet or do click and collect or get a delivery

[Mamyalynne]

30 in Rhyl all had that thought simultaneously and arrived at 11pm , marvellous.

[Arrods]

They should have said they were driving to test their eyesight.

[fcc]

So now you think it's ok to tell people what brand of milk to drink,
if they are willing to go 20 miles for milk that's their choice,don't tell people what to eat or drink,we still live in a free country.

[Sunk]

Hmm,
The 2021 equivalent of a rave is queuing for milk at a remote farm before getting raided by the Pigs.

Don’t think so.

The farmer said they had no problem most of the time, but just once PC was doing 100% of the fining.
I suspect most of those fines will be rescinded.

[Atheist]

fcc, freedom does also involve responsibilty. It's selfish to exercise one's freedom if that endangers others.

[Sunk]

Just looked on the map.
Rhyl is the nearest town to the farm.
Rhyl is the home of 25,000 people.
30 people were fined by the same copper.

[Sunk]

Atheist

If I want to exercise my freedom responsibly, do I use a remote farm shop and vending machine, or do I go to Tescos in Rhyl at 11pm with 300 other shoppers?

[Atheist]

Sunk; are they the only options? Please answer responsibly.

[Theland]

I honestly believe we will see riots in the cities as the pressure cooker of lockdown explodes.
How?
A demonstration vetting out of control, or death in police custody; something.
We have the tinder, its ready for a spark.

[jno]

it's quite popular

https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/punters-queue-day-night-contactless-19657749

It sounds as though it ought to be comparatively risk-free, with just machines and no staff. It may be that it got crowded, and that this wasn't expected at that time of night (which is why I typically go to Sainsbury's just before closing time) but the story doesn't seem to say so.

Did these 30 people from Rhyl all come together? Perhaps that was unwise, but it doesn't sound obviously criminal unless they were all in the same bus. There aren't that many shops selling milk at that time of night

[Atheist]

Theland, the world isn't doomed to doom as you seem to think it is. Those who believe that the end time is nigh are our enemies because they have given in and stopped even trying to make the world a decent place. We might fail, but at least we try.

[Rosetta]

I am with Mamyalynne@20:23. It sounds fishy to me, far too many concidences at that time of night too

[jno]

you're not in the middle of a hot summer yet, Theland. The English do not riot in winter.

[Theland]

Jno - Correct. It is a seasonal thing.

[New Judge]

//Covid distancing and behaviour rules were also broken.//

As I said, I’m not familiar with Welsh legislation but in England that is not an offence.

//judge, are these fines contestable? I mean you can plead not guilty right??//

They’re not fines, Tora. They are fixed penalties. If they remain unpaid the police must take the recipient to court where he can plead not guilty.

I get your argument about the “reasonable excuse”, Chris. But the National Police Chiefs’ Council made it quite clear in the case of the two Derbyshire ladies that there is no distance constraint when you leave home with a reasonable excuse (say to exercise or buy goods from outlets that are open).

I would accept that the case of the 30 people pitching up at 11pm raises some doubt as to their motives. But the farm said “Even people living nearby are facing being fined, despite the force accepting milk as "an essential item".”

//Hopefully the govt will change the wording of the regulations if it really does say theres "no limits on how far" people can travel to shop for essential items,…” .//

The law does not say there are no limits. But that isn’t the way the law works in the UK. Because it doesn't say their are limits does not mean there are some to be imposed by the police. The law has to say there are limits if limits are to be imposed. The police cannot impose arbitrary limits of their own.

//It's selfish to exercise one's freedom if that endangers others.//

But it’s not illegal.

I still don’t seem to be getting my point over here. I don’t condone many of the activities we see reported (though I do defend the two Derbyshire ladies, now thankfully cleared of any wrongdoing). I think many of the people involved are stupid, selfish and inconsiderate. But they are not breaking the law. The police are taking it on themselves to interpret the law in a way they think fit and impose Fixed Penalties on people who have not transgressed. I described a report on these matters yesterday where hundreds of people had been wrongly charged under the Covid legislation and Kirsty Brimelow, QC called it a “systematic failure resulting from police and Ministers mixing up law and guidance.” That is what’s happening here. The government is perfectly able to enact stronger legislation if it wishes. In the meantime, Covid or no Covid, the UK is still subject to the rule of law, not to the whims of individual police officers.