Business & Finance36 mins ago
30 Years Ago Today
30 years ago we were still an adventurous and outward looking nation who did stuff like build the Channel Tunnel.
Now we've degenerated into a frightened, myopic, and inwards looking nation, intent on hiding away behind trade barriers we've erected against our European neighbours (no matter the harm to our own economy we're inflicting in the process).
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Now we've degenerated into a frightened, myopic, and inwards looking nation, intent on hiding away behind trade barriers we've erected against our European neighbours (no matter the harm to our own economy we're inflicting in the process).
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//It is obvious to anyone who is not obsessed with defending Brexit that the main sentiment behind it was anti-immigration.//
It's only obvious if you want it to be. I know a few people who are not obsessed with defending Brexit. They don't seem to believe that the main sentiment was anti-immigration.
But I return to my main point. You said you disliked the idea that the Brexit vote was determined by people who dislike foreigners. You quoted a passage from the poll that you cited:
"73% of those who are worried about immigration voted Leave,.."
So I'll ask again, how does being worried about immigration equate to disliking foreigners? I will accept that some people who are worried about immigration may dislike foreigners (but it's only a guess because I don't know). But I was one of the people who voted to leave and so I helped determine the outcome of the referendum. I am worried about immigration (well, I disagree with the EU's freedom of movement policy to be more precise). But I don't dislike foreigners.
Even if all those who voted to leave did so because they dislike foreigners, is that not a valid reason to vote the way they did? There is no doubt that our membership of the EU and the freedom of movement policy that has to be accepted as part of it contributed to enormous numbers of foreigners settling in the UK. So if you dislike foreigners that may be a perfectly justified and legitimate response when you are asked the question about EU membership. Or are the motives behind one's vote to be scrutinised before they are counted towards the total?
It's only obvious if you want it to be. I know a few people who are not obsessed with defending Brexit. They don't seem to believe that the main sentiment was anti-immigration.
But I return to my main point. You said you disliked the idea that the Brexit vote was determined by people who dislike foreigners. You quoted a passage from the poll that you cited:
"73% of those who are worried about immigration voted Leave,.."
So I'll ask again, how does being worried about immigration equate to disliking foreigners? I will accept that some people who are worried about immigration may dislike foreigners (but it's only a guess because I don't know). But I was one of the people who voted to leave and so I helped determine the outcome of the referendum. I am worried about immigration (well, I disagree with the EU's freedom of movement policy to be more precise). But I don't dislike foreigners.
Even if all those who voted to leave did so because they dislike foreigners, is that not a valid reason to vote the way they did? There is no doubt that our membership of the EU and the freedom of movement policy that has to be accepted as part of it contributed to enormous numbers of foreigners settling in the UK. So if you dislike foreigners that may be a perfectly justified and legitimate response when you are asked the question about EU membership. Or are the motives behind one's vote to be scrutinised before they are counted towards the total?
"What a strange world we live in. The "Anti-British" are the ones who want Britain as a country to keep existing!"
If by that you mean the leavers then that is tosh. The end game of the EU is to be the United States of Europe with its own army, currency, taxation rules etc. To be honest that is the only way it can work properly.
If by that you mean the leavers then that is tosh. The end game of the EU is to be the United States of Europe with its own army, currency, taxation rules etc. To be honest that is the only way it can work properly.
New Judge
You say that I have not substantiated my opinons, but all you talk about is yourself and the people around you. If that's what substantiation means, then I can do that too. I know of six people in my family who voted to leave (there are probably more but it never came up). Of those, five voted to leave because they want less - or in some cases zero - immigration. The last one voted leave because she didn't trust David Cameron and wanted to do the opposite of what he told her. Outside of family, I know a few more Brexiters directly - the majority voted because of immigration. One I know voted to leave because he thought it would benefit his company and did not think "hard brexit" would happen - he changed his mind when he realised that a norway-style brexit was not going to happen and seems to really regret his vote.
"So I'll ask again, how does being worried about immigration equate to disliking foreigners"
The majority of people who euphemistically talk about "having concerns" or "being worried" are usually people who straight up dislike immigrants. The same people usually use lump-of-labour illogic to talk about immigrants "stealing jobs" or bristle at other people speaking other languages when they aren't talking to them. But it's all the same thing.
Obviously such people are entitled to their opinions, but it is wrong to insist that Brexit had nothing to do with immigration - it was for the vast majority a vote on little else. People talk about Brexiters sometimes like they are riddles wrapped inside enigmas. They aren't. The majority did not care about fictional bendy banana rules or byzantine legal entanglements - most people were indifferent before 2015. If you are among the ones who did care before then, the fact is that you were in a minority. For the vast majority of people who voted leave it was all about immigration.
You say that I have not substantiated my opinons, but all you talk about is yourself and the people around you. If that's what substantiation means, then I can do that too. I know of six people in my family who voted to leave (there are probably more but it never came up). Of those, five voted to leave because they want less - or in some cases zero - immigration. The last one voted leave because she didn't trust David Cameron and wanted to do the opposite of what he told her. Outside of family, I know a few more Brexiters directly - the majority voted because of immigration. One I know voted to leave because he thought it would benefit his company and did not think "hard brexit" would happen - he changed his mind when he realised that a norway-style brexit was not going to happen and seems to really regret his vote.
"So I'll ask again, how does being worried about immigration equate to disliking foreigners"
The majority of people who euphemistically talk about "having concerns" or "being worried" are usually people who straight up dislike immigrants. The same people usually use lump-of-labour illogic to talk about immigrants "stealing jobs" or bristle at other people speaking other languages when they aren't talking to them. But it's all the same thing.
Obviously such people are entitled to their opinions, but it is wrong to insist that Brexit had nothing to do with immigration - it was for the vast majority a vote on little else. People talk about Brexiters sometimes like they are riddles wrapped inside enigmas. They aren't. The majority did not care about fictional bendy banana rules or byzantine legal entanglements - most people were indifferent before 2015. If you are among the ones who did care before then, the fact is that you were in a minority. For the vast majority of people who voted leave it was all about immigration.
//…but all you talk about is yourself and the people around you. If that's what substantiation means, then I can do that too.//
I’m not trying to substantiate anything. I know that people voted the way they did for all different reasons. Whilst I know of one or two specifics, I don’t claim to know (generally) what those reasons were. In contrast, you suggested that the referendum result was determined by people who dislike foreigners. You went on to provide results of a poll which explained a link between voters who had worries about immigration and the way they voted. You may be able to claim that all people who dislike foreigners may be worried about immigration but you cannot reasonably claim that all people who are worried about immigration dislike foreigners, and that’s what you effectively did.
//I know of six people in my family who voted to leave (there are probably more but it never came up). Of those, five voted to leave because they want less - or in some cases zero - immigration.//
Yes, but did you ask them whether they dislike foreigners? If not that information adds nothing. You didn’t claim the referendum result was swung by people who wanted less immigration. You said it was swung by those who dislike foreigners.
//One I know voted to leave because he thought it would benefit his company and did not think "hard brexit" would happen//
Then he was foolish. The question was to remain or leave; it was not to remain or slightly leave. He should have assumed that when we left we would have none of the facilities which the EU provides available to him.
//but it is wrong to insist that Brexit had nothing to do with immigration//
I never made such a claim. It clearly had a huge effect because immigration was one thing of which most people could see the results and form an opinion on what effect it had on them. Worrying about tariffs on the import of beetroot or the shape of bananas was probably low on their list of concerns.
//For the vast majority of people who voted leave it was all about immigration.//
So what if it was? I was one of what you believe is the minority who were concerned before 2015. I decided in 1992 that given the opportunity I would vote to leave. That was long before immigration from the EU was anything like as big an issue as it became. But it merely added to my desire to leave. My decision was not all about immigration but more about the policies which led to it and the organisation which imposed it. You may find there are quite few people for whom immigration was a factor, but not a deciding factor. And I doubt many of them dislike foreigners either.
I’m not trying to substantiate anything. I know that people voted the way they did for all different reasons. Whilst I know of one or two specifics, I don’t claim to know (generally) what those reasons were. In contrast, you suggested that the referendum result was determined by people who dislike foreigners. You went on to provide results of a poll which explained a link between voters who had worries about immigration and the way they voted. You may be able to claim that all people who dislike foreigners may be worried about immigration but you cannot reasonably claim that all people who are worried about immigration dislike foreigners, and that’s what you effectively did.
//I know of six people in my family who voted to leave (there are probably more but it never came up). Of those, five voted to leave because they want less - or in some cases zero - immigration.//
Yes, but did you ask them whether they dislike foreigners? If not that information adds nothing. You didn’t claim the referendum result was swung by people who wanted less immigration. You said it was swung by those who dislike foreigners.
//One I know voted to leave because he thought it would benefit his company and did not think "hard brexit" would happen//
Then he was foolish. The question was to remain or leave; it was not to remain or slightly leave. He should have assumed that when we left we would have none of the facilities which the EU provides available to him.
//but it is wrong to insist that Brexit had nothing to do with immigration//
I never made such a claim. It clearly had a huge effect because immigration was one thing of which most people could see the results and form an opinion on what effect it had on them. Worrying about tariffs on the import of beetroot or the shape of bananas was probably low on their list of concerns.
//For the vast majority of people who voted leave it was all about immigration.//
So what if it was? I was one of what you believe is the minority who were concerned before 2015. I decided in 1992 that given the opportunity I would vote to leave. That was long before immigration from the EU was anything like as big an issue as it became. But it merely added to my desire to leave. My decision was not all about immigration but more about the policies which led to it and the organisation which imposed it. You may find there are quite few people for whom immigration was a factor, but not a deciding factor. And I doubt many of them dislike foreigners either.
Again, you answer by talking about you. It was someone else who thought that "brexit is not about immigration".
And yes, I do think the majority if people who oppose immigration are motivated by a dislike of foreigners. The evidence is very strong that immigration is economically beneficial so other than ignorance I don't see another explanation.
And yes, I do think the majority if people who oppose immigration are motivated by a dislike of foreigners. The evidence is very strong that immigration is economically beneficial so other than ignorance I don't see another explanation.
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