Covid19.

[MynameisLuca]

Seems the deaths from covid are inaccurate. An example would be, someone who is positive for Covid, then cleared, then dies in a car crash and it's counted as a COVID19 death. Why are they doing this?

[Mamyalynne]

Much discussed recently.

https://www.theanswerbank.co.uk/News/Question1714593.html

[JimF]

It is difficult to take anything this Westminster government says seriously.

[Gromit]

If anything Covid-19 deaths are being under counted, not over counted.
Normally 600,000 people die every year. This year there have been 63,000 more deaths than normal, but the Government are only admitting to 45,000 deaths from Covid-19. The 18,000 anomaly is unexplained.
It would make no sense for the Government to over count because the higher the figure, the bigger their failure is. It makes every bit of sense that they would under count, to lessen their embarrassment.

[emmie]

why is the government held to account for this virus, they didn't create it, and they are somehow blamed for everything that goes on with it.
so someone miscounted, its hard to see how they could not. This government as far as i can see is doing the best it can, i wonder had we had KS in charge he would have made better choices or indeed any whatsoever. this constant government bashing is creating a real division in this country, i look forward to a day when it starts to get back to normal, whenever that might be.
and no i don't know the answer to the post.

[Gromit]

emmie
The Government are nor held to account FOR the virus. They are held to account for their response to it.
If the UK had double the number of fatalities as Germany, it would be a scandalous failure of Government. But we have actually had 5 TIMES their total of deaths.
The UK Government did (or didn’t do) something different than the German Government which has resulted in a lot more people dying. And it is right that they are called out for it.

[emmie]

seems the government can't do right in many people's eyes, i for one support them, they are doing a job that none of us could do. i know we voted for them, and should be held accountable but this virus is unprecedented and if they get things wrong, it's no surprise to me.

[satprof]

What the government should be held responsible for is the massive lack of preparedness for a pandemic. I used to work at WHO, but not as an epidemiologist, though I knew a few. We ran constant campaigns to remind countries that a pandemic could happen at any time. The science was clear, viruses were mutating and crossing from animal to human hosts. We'd had the scare from SARS, in particular, but there were others. The world just escaped massive problems with SARS but it showed what could easily happen.

In the UK about 3 or 4 years ago, the NHS ran a major exercise to test their preparedness. (I can't remember the name of the exercise, but could find it.) The results were shocking, highlighting PPE shortages, organizational issues and so on. This, of course,is why such exercises are run. What did the government of the day (Tory) do about it? Well, we have seen this year what they did about it.
They crossed their fingers and hoped that the possible pandemic wouldn't happen. The countries that prepared well, such as Germany, clearly didn't just cross their fingers but got off their backsides and did something in order to be ready should the worst happen.

[fiction-factory]

Done to death on the other thread.

jimF said "It is difficult to take anything this Westminster government says seriously." That may be true but I don't see the relevance to this thread. It's PHE England who produce the figures.

[fiction-factory]

satprof- I agree that the UK (like USA) was slow to act and the scientists were all over the place, but so was the WHO (who took too long to declare a pandemic, and are still unclear on facemasks and how the virus is transmitted). We were slow on closing borders and there was a British reluctance (among the public not just the government to be locked down early, stop normal life and be told what to do).

We were also slow and indecisive on PPE- but your example of Germany was also unprepared on PPE. Spain and Italy weren't prepared either and didn't do well despite acting quickly and forcefully.

Our only plan which did seem to work was adjusting teh NHS so it wasn't overwhelmed.

The only countries who were really prepared were China, Korea. Places like Australia and NZ (and Iceland) did well because they acted quickly and closed borders. Maybe on PPE they never needed it.

I think we, the people, in the UK have to take some responsibility too. People I know in other countries are amazed at how relaxed and non compliant the British are.

Anyway, the method of counting every death as covid, if they had it at some stage is silly. But for now it's not really changing the figures much. Like most countries we are under recording overall, but I think less so than most and certainly our figures are far more reliable than those of some nations who either lie or just have no idea.

[fiction-factory]

Luca- unfortunately the WHO has not set out a clear definition for Covid deaths. Our method means some under recording and some over recording. It's easy to criticise almost anything of course. Maybe you or someone could give a precise definition of what should be counted as a Covid death.

[Peter Pedant]

// If anything Covid-19 deaths are being under counted, not over counted.//

an early bit of sense thank god
on the other thread - parturient montes, nascetur ridiculus mus !

after much struggle some realisation that count this and count that it is STILL and underestimate - that this is no news at all - and research from DCs is prone to error depending on what you wish to look into ( they are all dead for example)

er what was the question

why have the govt got it wrong again
they havent = people just arent listening

[Peter Pedant]

// Luca- unfortunately the WHO has not set out a clear definition for Covid deaths.//

that should be fortunately
as otherwise you create a "died cured" category where you dump all your rubbish and embarassments

like no hospital acquired infection theyall died from what they were admitted with

[fiction-factory]

But without a clear definition though, PP, how can we make meaningful comparisons between different countries (even England v Scotland/Wales) for Covid death figures, and how can we clearly see trends in our own country?

[KARL]

Why are they doing this ? Because staggering disorganisation is the norm.

To take the view that the authorities are doing a job that you or I could not do and therefore we should praise them for it (perhaps dance in the streets at a specific time in the evening ?) is in the present circumstances a bit like saying a joiner's apprentice is doing well at running the local health care. Sure, the apprentice is all that is available in the village but why is that so, why sit back and have no higher expectations - is it simply our lot in life, as good as it gets ?

FF is correct at 07.12 except I doubt that we can (as Donald et al keep doing) say WHO were slow in declaring a pandemic - a pandemic is not under way until it spreads to a challenging extent to several countries. One can't declare a pandemic over a disease wreaking havoc in a single city, one region or a country - an epidemic yes but not a pandemic. WHO was issuing notes of concern well before a pandemic could be declared but it seems very few took any notice ("Won't happen here, we are so much better than the foreigners").

All external Schengen borders were closed simultaneously and limited other European closures (internally) were employed beyond that. Nevertheless, limited travel continued across external borders, more internally, and very few countries required quarantine for arrivals from abroad. Interestingly, there is evidence to indicate that ordinary tourists pose only a very small risk to any local population whereas returning residents (citizens or not, permanently living locally), if infected, are the spreaders. This is because of the far closer contact residents have within the community. All countries have continued accepting the return of residents throughout the entire period, and almost all countries have done so without requiring any testing or quarantine to establish/eliminate infection (of residents in particular).

[ichkeria]

It isn’t unreasonable to suppose that many of the surplus deaths are only indirectly related to the virus and may be directly related to the measures taken to counter it.
For one thing cancer deaths are predicted to rise by a number approximately equal to the official stats for deaths from the virus.
Given the difficulty of coming up with any sort of definitive figures for anything I’d be loath to start shouting too loudly about things.
Germany for example simply do things better than us largely and always have so it seems a bit unfair to hold this government in particular to task for that

[mushroom25]

// Germany for example simply do things better than us //

the German mindset is different for one thing. In my industry in the UK there are examples of engineering solutions designed to protect people from themselves, whereas these are not prevalent in Germany. The German attitude is "why would you even do that?", when a rule to follow is all that's needed.

[Peter Pedant]

// It isn’t unreasonable to suppose that many of the surplus deaths are only indirectly related to the virus and may be directly related to the measures taken to counter it.//

yes I think it probably is - unreasonable
because the deaths started before the measures to counter it ( slow for PPE etc - you can have something causing something else if it isnt there

erm unless you are gonna say
and may be directly related to the measures taken to counter it.
because there werent any measures taken ....
even I would baulk at that one!

[Peter Pedant]

// // Germany for example simply do things better than us ////
jesus they are a bit ruly I agree
In language skool, one earnest German said ( in thpanith ouf course) "he has used a tense we havent done yet"
I said: the context needed it
teacher - yeth - sbtholutely
later we did futures
how mnay = how many do we need to use?
as many as it requires to tell the story
no no that isnt good enough..... and they were just in their teenth

[Peter Pedant]

hi mush
and refs you can give me on rituals as used in health care?

[youngmafbog]

"If anything Covid-19 deaths are being under counted, not over counted."

Sheer garbage. As usual you ignore the additional deaths from suicide, murder etc and people not getting appropriate treatment. As I have said so many times on here you cannot just look at excess deaths, it needs time to analyse and correlate with counting in other Countris. I would not expect such a task to be complete for at least 2 years. By that time trends can also be taken into account.