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'equality' & 'social Justice'

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Khandro | 12:24 Fri 24th Jan 2020 | News
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The Labour leadership candidates (& the rest of the Corbynistas) never stop banging on about these, but they never define them, what do you think they mean?

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I've exhausted my knowledge on the subject, Karl, save to say that true socialism doesn't work and Communism & Marxism definitely don't. Not on a claim that they make all people equal and that they bring about social justice, anyway.
16:46 Fri 24th Jan 2020
Equality should mean just that, equal rights across the board, not superiority or favouritism for specific genders or races, just a level playing field.

For me, Social Justice is defending those who are bullied, stereotyped or simply ignored. Helping those who struggle to be heard to have a voice.

The problem is that both these things get taken to extremes by some, and instead of equality, some want superiority for those previously oppressed. It just creates the same problem but with different victims.
I agree with Mozz, though 'Equality' can be more subjective than 'Social Justice' and when taken to extremes becomes Communism.

I agree with Mozz on Equality. Social justice is unattainable, as has been proven by the failure of communism and Marxism.
// when taken to extremes becomes Communism//

"All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others", as Orwell put it.
^^^ Quite :-)
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Plato defined equality as 'proportionate', that is to say giving people what they merited this he thought resulted in 'justice'.

I think most of these left-wing ideologues think it would be 'just' to pool everything and share it out evenly - idealistic communism requiring authoritarian control, without which, in a very short order, some would be very rich & many would be poor, which is back where you started.
Labour, and others, are using as a reference the UK's societal norms. It is not difficult to find examples abroad where there is a higher level of equality among individual members in society and better social justice (as per outline definitions above, good enough to get on with) than in the UK.

The biggest hurdle/obstacle on the journey toward either/both equality and social justice anywhere is achieving transparency. That hurdle is a huge one in the UK because culturally, perhaps instinctively/by nature, the British are very secretive both collectively and individually. Very few things apart from opinions on the weather and the habits of pets are not shrouded in mystery/secrecy/privacy. The country's systems/institutions/management/operations are generally very opaque and this is sometimes described with a good bit of pride as an essentially civilised characteristic. This is also likely the reason why how things look is so often more important than how they are. Pointing to things perhaps not being as good as they could be is restricted to quiet moaning (lots of it) rather than open/active criticism. "Carrying on" is a virtue rather than challenging the status quo, questioning the validity of the facade/veneer is objectionable/treason. The choice of targets for moaning over is too often restricted to something that is not all that relevant in the scheme of things, what matters goes on (or returns to) "as it always has been" - wonderful.

Nevertheless, all the moaning points to a deep feeling of something not being right. Could it be that looking at more successful societies (today, not a century or so ago) and copying their example would be a good start ? Still, in a democratic society, what the majority is happy with is what is satisfactory, whether it is in that society's best interests or not. It can be argued that something that justifies more moaning is to be preferred.
Labelling socialistic ideas as communism is a rather simplistic argument which smells of the same sort of prejudice that is employed by far too many socialists: Us and Them class division - it is no better to deploy that from below than from above. "They" deserve equality and social justice just as much as "we".
Care to provide some examples of these 'more equal' societies' Karl?

'The biggest hurdle/obstacle on the journey toward either/both equality and social justice anywhere is achieving transparency'

I disagree. The biggest obstacle is keeping those in power from abusing it and feathering their nests with the earnings of the masses.
"From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" Karl Marx …

...Which might work until you factor in the idle who will always be happy to let someone else work hard to support them.
Why do you say that they never define them?
You’ll get scores of different answer here but none of them will probably be the same.
Z-M, start with the Nordic countries but for the full comparison check out the wealth of comparison lists, most published every year or so, all putting the UK well behind the leaders.
...and, if there is transparency all is in full view. Greedy/corrupt leaders/politicians/etc. are not only tempted but get away with behaviour in the dark like in the UK, not so when it is there for all to see virtually "live". I still tend toward transparency rather than impotently speculating about what may transpire as the eventually, occasionally, often vaguely evident (hence disputed) problem having to be suspected, investigated and (hopefully, if it doesn't get covered up or somehow converted into a corner or cancelled out/reversed) exposed.
The 'nordic model' isn't perfect and Scandinavian countries rank the same as us on the inequality-adjusted Human Development Index. The model hasn't been in existence long enough to be proven as robust. I dont think tax rates such as Sweden's top personal income tax rate was 61.85%, Denmark's 55.8%, plus standard tax rates of 26.4 percent (Denmark), and 22.1 percent (Sweden)would be readily implemented by any British government.
Social justice is equity across the board. For the disabled, for nationals or foreigners, for the employed for the unemployed. Regardless of your background opportunity should be fair for all.
Equality is a delusion.
// "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" //

Unsurprisingly, it's an approach that's always been more popular with the needy than it has the able.
ZM, The national ratings in the 2019 Human Development Index are as follows from no.1/top in order:
Norway, Switzerland, Ireland, Germany, Hong Kong, Australia, Iceland, Sweden, Singapore, Netherlands, Denmark, Finland, Canada, New Zealand and the UK is 15th.
My reading of the table is that, "inequality adjusted", Ireland and the UK are equal, Germany, Canada, New Zealand, Hong Kong and Singapore come out worse than the UK, the rest (above) remaining above the UK, primarily the Nordics. When it comes to gender inequality the UK sinks to 27th place in the rankings.
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The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread.

Anatole France
I've exhausted my knowledge on the subject, Karl, save to say that true socialism doesn't work and Communism & Marxism definitely don't. Not on a claim that they make all people equal and that they bring about social justice, anyway.

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