Mp Admits He Will Defy His Own Leave Constituency

[fender62]

he wont honour the referendum results of his constituents, what a mess our politics are.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1071206/Brexit-News-Remainer-MP-Article-50-Theresa-May-Leave

[Kromovaracun]

Elections and referenda are not decided by rational debate. Or at the very least, not exclusively. The idea that they are is really quite naive. They're way more complicated. I can't think of any public vote in my lifetime where the debate could reasonably be described as 'rational'. And no, that's not a reason to do away with democracy. Democracy is still the best available system to hold power accountable and reduce corruption.

In a contest where the voting public was so evenly split, it's pretty much indisputable that day was won in the short-term by campaigning.

As I said earlier, campaigning is not magic. The AV referendum, for example, was pretty much a doomed cause in hindsight because the overwhelming majority were either not interested or actively opposed. Brexit wasn't like that - it split the country down the middle and the deciding votes were cast by people who went into the debate undecided.

This is not a criticism of Brexit. Lord knows I have plenty of them, which I have expressed plenty of times on here, but this ain't one. The Remain campaign was complacent and badly run, not to mention tone deaf as to why its messages weren't sticking. Vote Leave were smarter than that.

[Kromovaracun]

And no, "going in undecided" is not code for "stupid" either.

God, this is like walking on eggshells around a hypersensitive relative.

[ichkeria]

“Unwashed thickos” ??!!

Is that what you think ve?
Or what you think I think.
I think no such thing.

[naomi24]

Jim, that’s the second time to my knowledge you’ve used those quotes out of context. I might have missed other instances. They come from a thread that ran throughout the day and night of the last election after the naïve and youthful ‘Oh Jeremy Corbyn’ Choir had been whipped into a frenzy of fawning sycophancy – the result, as is evidenced by that thread, totally unexpected by all - even Corbyn’s own long-term supporters. I’ll say again. Please don’t misrepresent me.

Krom, //The Remain campaign was complacent and badly run//

… or it could have been that Leavers weren’t gullible enough to be fooled by any of it. That the Remain campaign was complacent simply isn’t true. It had all the big guns on its side – and it didn’t hesitate for a moment to add to its arsenal at any given opportunity. Government leaflets posted to every home, the support of the majority of MPs, the support of majority of big business and industry – none of whom were reluctant to speak out - not forgetting that they all did their utmost to promote horrors they conjured up on practically a daily basis for what they felt was their biggest weapon - Project Fear. No, Krom. Leavers knew what they wanted – and in consistently claiming otherwise you are discrediting their good sense and their integrity.

[ToraToraTora]

busy night above eh? I'll add my shillings worth. I accept the priasings of the leave campaign above in the spirit they are intended. Leave did indeed tap into a variety of things, not only to get people to vote leave but to vote at all. Anyway remain was never going to sway me personally but I noted with interest their approach. They relied too much on 2 things, the economics and trying to scare the bejesus out of people. Before during and after the campaign it was, is and remains extremely unusual to hear anything that could be construed as a positive reason to remain. Instead remainers still use the negative approach in any situation.

[jim360]

Naomi, don't go about saying that I think the electorate is stupid, then.

[naomi24]

Put your handbag away, Jim.

[jim360]

Who has a handbag? You keep complaining about my misrepresenting you (although I'm not sure how direct, verbatim quotes achieve that), while doing exactly the same to me. There is no sense in which I think the electorate is stupid. I would think that the least you could do is withdraw the remark, no?

[jim360]

"...or it could have been that Leavers weren’t gullible enough to be fooled by any of it."

Also, while we're at it, what does this say about your opinions of Remain voters? The converse of your point is pretty unambiguous: that they were gullible. That's taking nothing out of context.

[naomi24]

Jim, you have misrepresented me – again – and your post at 10:09 confirms that. If you don’t think the electorate is stupid I’m mistaken, but that’s the impression I’ve gained from your suggestion that, rather than making up their own minds, Leavers were influenced in their decision by a campaign.

[naomi24]

Jim, //what does this say about your opinions of Remain voters?//

It says nothing about my opinions of Remain voters …. not even what you try to read into it.

[jim360]

If that's the impression you gain then I can't do much about that. It's completely illogical.

We *know* that there were undecided voters before the referendum, or there were people who made only the final decision which way to vote when they were at the ballot box. What can possibly have pushed them one way or another if not the relative strengths and persuasiveness of the two campaigns? It would certainly play at least some part.

I just... it beggars belief that even remotely the idea that the electorate is therefore "stupid" comes into this. That's just a normal part of how politics works. I don't know how else I can make this point.

[ToraToraTora]

can you two get a room or something?

[naomi24]

Jim, //I don't know how else I can make this point. //

Perhaps best you don't try. You're meeting yourself coming back as it is. Read your post at 22:07 Mon again … especially the bit where you said // we saw how easily the Leave campaign was able to absorb it into their narrative: that is, that of the (liberal) elite just trying to deny the people a voice, or some such. Anything that allowed the debate to be framed as "us (the people) v. them (our self-proclaimed Lords and Masters)" is quite easy to exploit and use to feed the Leave campaign even further.//

[naomi24]

TTT, no one is stopping you adding your two-pennyworth - or anyone else adding theirs.

[jim360]

In that case, you are confusing "wrong" with "stupid". Clearly, I think that many of the arguments of the Leave campaign are wrong, while those that are right aren't enough justification to leave the EU. But being wrong and being stupid are not remotely synonymous.

[naomi24]

Jim, interpret it as you will. Your post at 22:07 Mon is there for all to read.

[jim360]

It doesn't say what you think it says.

[naomi24]

It says what it says. I'm going out now. Back later.

[Kromovaracun]

//Leavers knew what they wanted – and in consistently claiming otherwise you are discrediting their good sense and their integrity.//

You knew what *you* wanted, Naomi. But you seem very reluctant to acknowledge that there were any voters who weren't like you - who were undecided up until very late and were swayed by the campaigns. It's an obvious truth that Remain failed to sway those people where Leave did. I don't understand why you are so hostile to this idea.