Deaths On Brecon Beacons

[LoftyLottie]

This has really upset and worried me. I know they have to face terrible conditions in Afghanistan, etc., but surely there should have been more supervision and observation on a training exercise.

What do other ABers think

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/two-military-personnel-die-welsh-exercise-140343537.html#Feore4n

[DJHawkes]

that's why I made the comment about the rocks in the backpack, the soldiers did that to stretch themselves, there PT instructor didn;t say, hey guys there's a pile of rocks over there, put them in your backpack' they chose to add them, I also recall that it was usually officers who were lost on the brecons, I definately remember an officer post on pen y fan one weekend in awful weather, I had only been married a few months and my husband was called out in the middle of doing tea one weekday evening, I got home and the burgers were half cooked on the grill but it was turned off and the house was was empty empty. For while I thought he had just nipped across to the camp naafi shop for something. after a few hours i was getting upset and so drove onto the camp and went to the MR HQ and they told me they had a call out. He was gone until early hours of the morning and came home soaked and exhausted and they had found the officer dead. That's when he told me about the rocks in the backpack that had weighed the officer down in the mud on the hill. The MR team went out in terrible conditions to find him but that was what they trained for, my husband had to be in work for 8am, and he went. I have it in my head the young officer was a major, but could that have been the case of he was in his 20s?

[slaney]

Following a decade in Afghanistan, one would have thought there were well established procedures in the army for spotting the early signs of heat stroke.
There have been isolated incidences and deaths in similar circumstances in the past, but this is a bit different.
Some sources say that six soldiers in all were taken ill, with two deaths and one case in hospital. This suggests there may have been some failure in supervision here - we shall see when all the facts are known.

[jake-the-peg]

Lot of macho crap being spouted by people willing to forgive the armed forces anything.

This was not one isolated casulty by two deaths

Of Territorial Army people - not even full time soldiers

What next? shooting recruits because that's what they might expect.

I wonder if some of these people voicing these opinions would feel comfortable doing so to the famillies of those who've died.

we'll have to see what the inquiry has to say mut at first glance it looks as if insufficient consideration was given to the risks on the day, those in charge may have failed to recognise that the exhaustion being suffered was life threatening and there may well have been insufficient emergency provision.

As Gromit has pointed out this sort of thing has happened before so there really is no excuse

All the macho BS in the world does not change the fact that soldiers - especially TA soldiers should not be dying on training exercises

[grumpy01]

Don't expect all the facts will ever be known.

[DJHawkes]

i don;t think I've ever spouted macho crap in me life wot are you on about?

[Sqad]

\\\Lot of macho crap being spouted by people willing to forgive the armed forces anything. \\\

Crap?.........because you disagree with it?......that is normal for you.

\\\Of Territorial Army people - not even full time soldiers \\

T.A units have to have the same standard of training as the regular units which they may have to support or even replace in future conflicts.

\\I wonder if some of these people voicing these opinions would feel comfortable doing so to the families of those who've died. \\

Have had two sons one in the RAMC and attached to an SAS unit in Hereford and another in the Marines, all done tours of duty in active theatres of war.
In that situation and even in non active roles...unfortunate deaths do occur.

Have you been in the Armed Forces?......let me guess......NO.

Let us wait for the enquiry eh?

[Sharingan]

The MOD have already stated that no live ammunition was involved and that the men in quesiton didn't fall. There were also SIX people who collapsed and had to be airlifted to hospital, which implies to me that they collapsed because of the heat, which any idiot could have told you would happen if you go scrambling about on the Brecons, it didn't need a military idiot, any old passing one would have done. It is to me completely unacceptable. Note as well they are refusing to cancel further exercises of a similar nature, so look forward to a few more later on in the summer. These men died needlessly because of incompetence.There is nothing macho or 'elite' about dying because of the stupidity of whoever organised it.

[LoftyLottie]

I would also give Sharigan a best answer. Yes, I know she and Jake agree with me, but knowing that these soldiers were TA somehow makes it far, far worse. I have considered those answers that for one reason or another think it is acceptable - but it is not!!

[LoftyLottie]

Quote

Col Richard Kemp, former infantry commander, told the BBC Breakfast programme that the Brecon Beacons were valued by the military for training because they were hard to navigate and cross on foot and provided extremes of heat and cold.

He said soldiers on special forces selection were likely to be operating alone which made it harder for signs of heat exhaustion to be spotted quickly.

He said: "When you begin to get engulfed by heat illness, your thought processes blur.

"The staff at the check points should be looking to see if anybody is having particular problems."

[DJHawkes]

But TA 's are serving now in afghanistan, they are doing the same job as a regular army person would do, how can they possibly be any less rigorously trained? Or do you think that because the person is in the TA they are somehow an amateur or pretend soldier? They are not at all. If anything they have to train harder as they are doing their day job most months of the year. It's not like being a cadet. The exercise this weekend will very much have been led by their own initiative and determination to push and test themselves.

[Gromit]

I have posted a couple of examples from the 1990s but I am sure I remember a similar incdent more recently.

I have tried googling for it, but cannot find it. Anyone remember an incident in the last 5 or 6 years, that was remarkably similar?

[slaney]

Was it this one Gromit?
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/marine-dies-on-special-forces-march-322419

[DJHawkes]

se here: the one my husband went out to look for is mentioned in the comments under the article, these men are soldiers and train hard.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2270308/Soldier-dead-snow-covered-Welsh-mountain-gruelling-SAS-training-exercise-complete-toughest-Army-march-freezing-temperatures.html

[DJHawkes]

bloody hell never expected to find out this, my ex-husband was one of the men who found him ,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Kealy

[Booldawg]

I went out for a bike ride on Saturday and noticed recruits being PT'ed by Para PTIs who are not known for their sympathetic attitude towards how hot it is.

[DJHawkes]

precisely, if i am going on holiday abroard for 2 weeks a book a course of sun bed treatments from 8 weeks beforehand, imagine what they need to do to spend 3 - 4 months in the desert or on a cold mountain? it's aclimatising both physically and mentally.

[andy-hughes]

As Lottie has pointed out, heat exhaustion is something of a tragic Catch 22 - the exhaustion that should tell your body to stop and rest in shelter, also blurs your mind to the point where you cannot think and act clearly.

It does sound - and the majority of comments on here concur, as though the army is in the habit of flogging men to death by marching them beyond endurance.

The fact is, these soldiers are highly trained and physically fit to complete the exercises designed for them.

The issue is, they are alone for periods of time, and outside normal contact, inbetween check points where they are assessed and given appropriate water and salt intake.

As the colonel discussing this on Radio Four said, it would be wonderful to think that this will not happen again - but it wil, because the nature of the training exercise and the conditions in which it is held means that deaths like this can and do occur.

The rather dispassionate way in which he talked about people dying is probably the attitude to death required if you are going to be a career soldier, and your job requires decisions that will result in the deaths of human beings, from his own forces as well as the enemy at the time.

[Sqad]

andy..a well balanced and neutral view of a difficult subject which in my opinion deserved "Best Answer."

[ChillDoubt]

Laughable. The Best Answer is given to someone with a renowned disdain for HM Forces and who has absolutely no idea of the rigours, trials and tribulations of selection for Special Forces.
The 'what next, shooting recruits' comment certainly makes the poster appear very hysterical and somewhat juvenile.

Service in HM Forces has the heightened possibility of death as an occupational hazard, service in Special Forces even more so, be that in selection, training or active duty.

[Sqad]

Childoubt......;-)

Par for the course.