Smoking Ban & Lock Ins

[Pottsy]

If a pub is owned (not rented) by the landlord, once the pub has shut to the public, is it legal to stay in the pub drinking on the invitation of the landlord? (basically a lock in) Is it then legal to smoke in the bar with the landlord's permission? As it is now not a pub, but effectively the landlord's front room and not open to the public.

[Mamjet]

Idiot.

[Ethel]

You know very well there is nothing legal about lock ins, smoking or non-smoking.

But let's say it is not a lock in, but closed for a private party - quite legal. It is still a workplace and smoking is not allowed.

[R1Geezer]

I would have thought that as long as no one is working and the place is locked and only invited guests are allowed in and no money is being charged for drinks etc then I would say yes it is effectively the landlords private party so on that basis yes smoking would be ok. But in reality a genuine "private party" of this nature is rare, it is generally a ruse and would be treated as such by the old bill

[Pottsy]

My point is that once the pub is shut, it is nothing more than the front room of a private house. The landlady swears blind this practice is legal and I wondered if anybody could actually clarify as a point of law. I have read the legislation and it seems a bit vague.

[R1Geezer]

Yes if it is real then it's legal.
- Is anyone working, serving etc?
- Is money being charged for anything, in any way shape or form?
- Are all people in the room real invited guests?

if the answers are no, no, yes then it is a private party and quite legal to smoke.

[Ethel]

All premises open to the public are smoke free - even when they are closed to the public,

So no, the landlord cannot smoke in his own pub bar after the pub has closed.

[R1Geezer]

Have you got a link to where it says that Ethel?

[mccfluff]

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200 506/cmbills/069/06069.1-7.html#j501

go to smoke free premises

[Ethel]

2
Smoke-free premises


(1)
Premises are smoke-free if they are open to the public.

5


But unless the premises also fall within subsection (2), they are smoke-free only when open to the public.


(2)
Premises are smoke-free if they are used as a place of work�


(a)
by more than one person (even if the persons who work there do so at different times, or only intermittently), or

10

(b)
where members of the public might attend for the purpose of seeking or receiving goods or services from the person or persons working there (even if members of the public are not always present).


So a pub clearly falls under s.2 and smoking is not allowed at any time.

[Buenchico]

As Ethel has shown, it's illegal to smoke in a public bar even when it's closed. (e.g. the landlord is not permitted to smoke in the bar when he's clearing up after all of his customers have left or on the following morning before they arrive).

As far as the legality (or otherwise) of a 'lock in' is concerned, please see my answer here:
http://www.theanswerbank.co.uk/Law/Question515 055.html

Chris

[Buenchico]

PS: When reading the answer I've linked to, please also read Loonytune's response regarding possible conditions of the Premises' Licence.

Chris

[R1Geezer]

well thanks ethel I didn't realise that.

[flip_flop]

Just goes to show what an absurd piece of legislation this is.

[Twenty20]

Why is it 'absurd' to ban smoking in public places? Have some consideration for other people, do it in the privacy of your own home where you wont affect others.

[New Judge]

I�m surprised you consider it absurd, flip_flop.

I reckon it is about the only worthwhile and useful piece of legislation introduced by the current administration. Smoking in public places (especially indoors) is rather like peeing in a swimming pool. It�s true you may not die as a result of either activity (though some certainly do as a result of secondary smoking) but it is a most unpleasant notion and can lead to numerous health problems.

As has been explained by some of the previous answers, the legislation is quite straightforward and the definitions of workplaces and public places covered by the Act are quite clear.

[markysngc]

Surely though if the landlord is already breakng the law by having a lock in then they may as well go for the in for a penny in for a pound approch and just get the ashtrays out anyhow.

I reckon pretty much every country pub has lock ins at some point, and probably a lot of them will also permit smoking inside during these hours as sending people outside for a smoke would kinda give away the fact people are still inside!

Yes I know it is breaking the law and the law shouldn't be broken ever, but I personallly would much rather see the police using time finding people who have, for example, been going round mugging old ladys then going after a few people that are having a couple of after hours drinks and smoking inside a building.

[DinloDan]

When ever I go to lockins we always go outside to smoke as it's illegal to smoke in an enclosed public space.

[mccfluff]

i work in a pub and their method is end of night kick out all the unknown's and when its just regulars left, door close and ashtrays come out! The manager even smok in the office whilst the pubs open!

personally and i'm a smoker i support the legislation, i much prefer being able to work without some idiot smoking at the bar and not having to go home and change my clothes immediatly cos the stink of smoke ( for the record i don't smoke in my house either)

[flip_flop]

I find the fact that a landlord cannot have a puff in his own property once the premises are closed for business and he is not harming anybody but himself, utterly utterly absurd.

It is nannying gone mad.

[New Judge]

But, flip_flop, even if he owns it (and most do not) the property is a �public place� and a workplace. The public areas are not his home.

After he�s had his ciggy once he has shut up shop, the smoke he produces will linger (even more than the pee in the swimming pool, where the water is constantly being cleaned). It will still be there at the start of the next session when his customers and staff arrive.

Unfortunately, if allowed, this will be the thin end of the wedge because, as we have seen from this question, people always stretch any boundaries that are imposed to see where the limit really is. The next thing will be that family and visiting friends will be lighting up in the bar outside opening hours, and so it goes on.

Believe me, I am the first to howl down any measures which the Nanny State imposes which are clearly ridiculous. For once, though (and only this once!) I think they have got it right.