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Dog behaviour advice needed?! Help!
We have 5 dogs - 2 westies, 2 chihuahua's and a greyhound rescue dog. I am concerned about the behaviour of Blossom, one of the westies.
She is constantly growling at the other dogs, and is very introverted and anxious. At first I thought she was being hostile out of naughtiness, but now I see that she is actually very, very stressed.
I don't know if this is possible or not, but I think that Lily, our other westie, has been bullying her. I say this because I often catch Lily staring at Blossom very intensely (without growling), and that seems to really stress Blossom. She will then growl at Lily till she literally coughs and chokes! Lily just continues to sit and stare at her, so she is clearly not put off. I try to distract Lily's attention or call her to me, but 5 secs later, I turn round and she's intimidating poor Blossom again. Then Blossom will growl herself stupid and skulk out of the room to sit alone in the kitchen.
I am really concerned that we are going to have to re-home Blossom if we can't sort things out between her and the other dogs, especially Lily.
Someone suggested we are not being 'good pack leaders' to the dogs generally, and that is why Blossom feels she has to protect herself. Could this be true? Does Blossom genuinely think she's in danger?
She initially started growling just at Lily, but now, if any of the dogs even so much as glance at her or walk in her direction, she goes mad over it.
I should point out that Blossom and Lily are cousins, and came to live with us at exactly the same time. Lily gets on fine with all the other dogs, and I have to say, Blossom is the only one she does the weird staring thing with.
If anyone can give ANY advice on how to conquer this problem I would really appreciate it!
Caroline
She is constantly growling at the other dogs, and is very introverted and anxious. At first I thought she was being hostile out of naughtiness, but now I see that she is actually very, very stressed.
I don't know if this is possible or not, but I think that Lily, our other westie, has been bullying her. I say this because I often catch Lily staring at Blossom very intensely (without growling), and that seems to really stress Blossom. She will then growl at Lily till she literally coughs and chokes! Lily just continues to sit and stare at her, so she is clearly not put off. I try to distract Lily's attention or call her to me, but 5 secs later, I turn round and she's intimidating poor Blossom again. Then Blossom will growl herself stupid and skulk out of the room to sit alone in the kitchen.
I am really concerned that we are going to have to re-home Blossom if we can't sort things out between her and the other dogs, especially Lily.
Someone suggested we are not being 'good pack leaders' to the dogs generally, and that is why Blossom feels she has to protect herself. Could this be true? Does Blossom genuinely think she's in danger?
She initially started growling just at Lily, but now, if any of the dogs even so much as glance at her or walk in her direction, she goes mad over it.
I should point out that Blossom and Lily are cousins, and came to live with us at exactly the same time. Lily gets on fine with all the other dogs, and I have to say, Blossom is the only one she does the weird staring thing with.
If anyone can give ANY advice on how to conquer this problem I would really appreciate it!
Caroline
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I'm not sure hun, but we have 4 dogs of our own. Maybe it's the pack instinct thing. There's always a dominant one. In our case, it's the eldest. They all get on fine most of the time, but if Oscar decides that one of them's getting more attention than he is, he can be a bit "funny". He'll also give warning growls to the other male - who's a lot bigger than him, but backs off, all the same. When he's in one of those moods, the bitches can be a bit nervous around him, but none of them actually fight with each other.
I'd hang on a bit hun, and also take her to the vet's just for a check-up. If she has a medical problem that's bothering her, maybe the "bullying's" hurt her at some stage. Just a thought, but I DO know what you mean. We have loads of animals, and they're all loved, so it's upsetting when something's wrong with them, whatever form it takes. It seems a shame to get rid of her, because it'd confuse her even more to be removed from the home she's grown up in. I hope you can find out what's wrong. x
Hi beanie:
Sorry to hear about your problems and I can appreciate how distressing it must be for you.
My two collies know exactly who is pack leader in our house - ME ! It has to be that way, otherwise you will get these little power struggles going on, especially when you have the amount you have (no criticism!).
My two are one of each, the bitch(an RSPCA rescue) being several years older, and she's like a big sister to the dog. But at the first sign of serious disagreement between them I leave them in no doubt as to what I think. I've never struck them, it's the tone of my voice which does the trick. They know that I'm in charge, the bitch is next, then the dog. They MUST have this hierarchy to maintain order.
Now, you have the added problem of both your Westies being the same sex, in your case 2 bitches, and there's clearly a power struggle taking place.
Are they spayed, by the way? All dogs we've ever had get spayed - saves having the added complication of rampant hormones
Sorry to hear about your problems and I can appreciate how distressing it must be for you.
My two collies know exactly who is pack leader in our house - ME ! It has to be that way, otherwise you will get these little power struggles going on, especially when you have the amount you have (no criticism!).
My two are one of each, the bitch(an RSPCA rescue) being several years older, and she's like a big sister to the dog. But at the first sign of serious disagreement between them I leave them in no doubt as to what I think. I've never struck them, it's the tone of my voice which does the trick. They know that I'm in charge, the bitch is next, then the dog. They MUST have this hierarchy to maintain order.
Now, you have the added problem of both your Westies being the same sex, in your case 2 bitches, and there's clearly a power struggle taking place.
Are they spayed, by the way? All dogs we've ever had get spayed - saves having the added complication of rampant hormones
beanie:
Sorry, I wasn't finished: What I was saying was that it's an added complication if they're not spayed.
Westies do have a reputation for being feisty wee things and I know some who have been known to gang up on another Westie, so you're not alone in having problems.
However, it is incumbent on you, and/or your other half, to assert yourself as leader(s) of your pack, because that's the sort of leadership a pack of dogs need.
Sometimes you have to be "cruel to be kind", i.e. how severely do you tell them off? If you either don't or try to speak to them as if they were naughty kids - DON'T! They will only see that as a sign of weakness and a lack of leadership.
I feel terrible when I bawl at my dogs but I know that it's the only way for me to assert my authority. And guess what? It works, and they don't hold it against me. Try it and see.
Best of luck.
Sorry, I wasn't finished: What I was saying was that it's an added complication if they're not spayed.
Westies do have a reputation for being feisty wee things and I know some who have been known to gang up on another Westie, so you're not alone in having problems.
However, it is incumbent on you, and/or your other half, to assert yourself as leader(s) of your pack, because that's the sort of leadership a pack of dogs need.
Sometimes you have to be "cruel to be kind", i.e. how severely do you tell them off? If you either don't or try to speak to them as if they were naughty kids - DON'T! They will only see that as a sign of weakness and a lack of leadership.
I feel terrible when I bawl at my dogs but I know that it's the only way for me to assert my authority. And guess what? It works, and they don't hold it against me. Try it and see.
Best of luck.
Hi Para,
that's an interesting point - up until a few weeks ago, the westies were not spayed. We only very recently had them both done (i.e. last few weeks).
I admire your control over your dogs! Mine are pretty well behaved most of the time, however, I really dont think they see us as pack leaders in the truest sense.
For example, when the growling/staring competition is going on, I will shout at them, sometimes I even scruff them. BUT, anything I do that stops Blossom getting away from the other dog sends her into a panicked frenzy. So scruffing her just seems to add to her terror. And Lily just basically ignores me and goes straight back to staring!
I don't know if I should be punishing Blos for growling or Lily for looking, or both. Or neither!
Do you think we have left it too late to establish pack leadership? Maybe if I could establish a similar hierarchy to the one you have with your dogs, this would stop?
As you say, when you have 5, it's difficult to establish rank. Maybe the Lily/Blossom problem is down to some sort of power struggle?
If I could establish a place for each dog in the hierarchy, I am sure we would have a happier pack. But where to start!
that's an interesting point - up until a few weeks ago, the westies were not spayed. We only very recently had them both done (i.e. last few weeks).
I admire your control over your dogs! Mine are pretty well behaved most of the time, however, I really dont think they see us as pack leaders in the truest sense.
For example, when the growling/staring competition is going on, I will shout at them, sometimes I even scruff them. BUT, anything I do that stops Blossom getting away from the other dog sends her into a panicked frenzy. So scruffing her just seems to add to her terror. And Lily just basically ignores me and goes straight back to staring!
I don't know if I should be punishing Blos for growling or Lily for looking, or both. Or neither!
Do you think we have left it too late to establish pack leadership? Maybe if I could establish a similar hierarchy to the one you have with your dogs, this would stop?
As you say, when you have 5, it's difficult to establish rank. Maybe the Lily/Blossom problem is down to some sort of power struggle?
If I could establish a place for each dog in the hierarchy, I am sure we would have a happier pack. But where to start!
Oh, Hi - sorry, I only just read your additional post.
Yes, I totally agree - I think the cruel to be kind approach is our only way forward. I wish we'd done it before, and had them spayed earlier.
You're also right about the westies being feisty. We've had westies before Lil and Blos came along, and they are willful little things. It's shocking to hear that they can 'gang up' on other dogs, though!
Thanks for your advice - I (no, WE) will try excercising more discipline with them all in general over the next couple of weeks, and see if we can start to make some positive changes!
Yes, I totally agree - I think the cruel to be kind approach is our only way forward. I wish we'd done it before, and had them spayed earlier.
You're also right about the westies being feisty. We've had westies before Lil and Blos came along, and they are willful little things. It's shocking to hear that they can 'gang up' on other dogs, though!
Thanks for your advice - I (no, WE) will try excercising more discipline with them all in general over the next couple of weeks, and see if we can start to make some positive changes!
Hi beanie:
I was just about to go to bed when I noticed your post.
I really, really feel for you because you obviously love your doggies to bits, as I do mine, and the toughest thing to do is to think that we could be nasty to them by putting them in their place, so to speak.
But, no, I don't think it's ever too late, but as I say it's hard being hard on them, if you follow me, and I sometimes think "Oh, God, they won't want to know me for having shouted at them so loudly." The next think I know, one or other of them's rolling on its back at my feet looking for a tickle!
I'm no expert at this, believe me, but maybe I'm lucky and have found something which works for me, but it's the only way, albeit far from perfect, I know to try to keep order!
It would be great to hear how you're getting on sometime later, perhaps?
In the meantime, they'll still love and worship the ground you walk upon no matter how much you raise your voice to them. Might wake the neighbours up as well !!
Best of luck. And so to bed !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I was just about to go to bed when I noticed your post.
I really, really feel for you because you obviously love your doggies to bits, as I do mine, and the toughest thing to do is to think that we could be nasty to them by putting them in their place, so to speak.
But, no, I don't think it's ever too late, but as I say it's hard being hard on them, if you follow me, and I sometimes think "Oh, God, they won't want to know me for having shouted at them so loudly." The next think I know, one or other of them's rolling on its back at my feet looking for a tickle!
I'm no expert at this, believe me, but maybe I'm lucky and have found something which works for me, but it's the only way, albeit far from perfect, I know to try to keep order!
It would be great to hear how you're getting on sometime later, perhaps?
In the meantime, they'll still love and worship the ground you walk upon no matter how much you raise your voice to them. Might wake the neighbours up as well !!
Best of luck. And so to bed !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I kept two bitches out of my last litter (June 2003). Up till they were about five they were fine, although one was always a little 'reserved' at home, but more outgoing away from home, probably because she went to shows whereas the other was not shown. She would sit in a basket under my desk and her smaller sister would keep going and looking at her, as if willing her to try to get past her. This was fine for a while but then when they were out the more reserved one would pick on the other one, as if to say when we are away from home I am top dog. At home though she began not even getting our of her basket to get a drink, as though she was scared to go past the other one. One day when out they had an almighty scrap and I had to separate them. After that they were constantly staring each other out. The reserved one came in season and went to stay with my friend who has a stud dog but we did not get a mating, but she asked if she could keep her as she had settled in so well and was so outgoing! I agreed, as both girls were much more relaxed, and life is so much less stressful for all of us. When bitches fall out they never forgive and forget like the boys do, so I would not worry about rehoming one as mine are both much happier.
I don't think it is a pack leadership thing.
There is no one pack leader anyhow - it constantly changes depending on the situation.
Sometimes dogs just don't get on with one another, a bit like us really!
As Lankeela says it is very difficult when bitches fall out and virtually impossible to make them live together in the future.
If she is that stressed out then she is obviously very unhappy and not enjoying life in a 'pack'. Maybe it would be best to rehome her to someone who would have her as an only dog where she could get all the attention and love for herself?
There is a dog training forum where you could get further advice (there are some really good dog trainers on there), it is free to join and friendly.
http://www.ttlntl.co.uk/forum/
Other than that I would advise going to a good dog trainer. A list can be found here:
http://www.apbc.org.uk/regions.php
There is no one pack leader anyhow - it constantly changes depending on the situation.
Sometimes dogs just don't get on with one another, a bit like us really!
As Lankeela says it is very difficult when bitches fall out and virtually impossible to make them live together in the future.
If she is that stressed out then she is obviously very unhappy and not enjoying life in a 'pack'. Maybe it would be best to rehome her to someone who would have her as an only dog where she could get all the attention and love for herself?
There is a dog training forum where you could get further advice (there are some really good dog trainers on there), it is free to join and friendly.
http://www.ttlntl.co.uk/forum/
Other than that I would advise going to a good dog trainer. A list can be found here:
http://www.apbc.org.uk/regions.php
Hi all - thanks para, I will definitely add to this post as the situation progresses! We have already started our tough tactics today, so here's hoping!
Lankeela - your situation sounded so so similar to mine. The only difference is, my two get on really well outside the house when they go for walks etc, and in the garden, but indoors is where all the trouble starts.
I'm so glad that yours are living happier lives now - it gives me some comfort to know that if I do have to look for another home for Blossom, it won't be the end of the world.
We are going to give it a month and speak to some of the trainers that Kita1 suggested, and then at least I can say we've done everything we can to sort the problem out.
Thanks again for posting.... x
Lankeela - your situation sounded so so similar to mine. The only difference is, my two get on really well outside the house when they go for walks etc, and in the garden, but indoors is where all the trouble starts.
I'm so glad that yours are living happier lives now - it gives me some comfort to know that if I do have to look for another home for Blossom, it won't be the end of the world.
We are going to give it a month and speak to some of the trainers that Kita1 suggested, and then at least I can say we've done everything we can to sort the problem out.
Thanks again for posting.... x
Hi Kita, thanks so much for the links. I'll be going on them after tea to see what I can find out.
I guess bitches are like women - we don't forget!
I think it's possible, as you say, that Blossom might never be the sort of dog that thrives in a pack. Even when it was just her and lilly, (before the chi's came along), she always liked to spend time alone.
It's sad really, cos as I said in my previous post, when the two girls are out and about together, having walks etc, it's like they are the best of pals. They stick together like glue!
If only dogs could talk, eh!
x
I guess bitches are like women - we don't forget!
I think it's possible, as you say, that Blossom might never be the sort of dog that thrives in a pack. Even when it was just her and lilly, (before the chi's came along), she always liked to spend time alone.
It's sad really, cos as I said in my previous post, when the two girls are out and about together, having walks etc, it's like they are the best of pals. They stick together like glue!
If only dogs could talk, eh!
x
I think Blossom considers herself pack leader and Lily's staring could possibly be an attempt to challenge that status. Staring is an act of dominance, the submissive pack members look away first. The growling is blossoms way of warning the pack that she is boss and not to challenge her. You will have to become pack leader in order to control this situation you are not fulfilling this role right now so Blossom has taken on the job herself, and is clearly uncomfortable with that position. Blossom will be much happier when she realises she doesn't have to be leader anymore.
We had a similar problem with our two male dogs as they reached adolescence. We got them neutered but we also tried some of Cesar Milan's strategies which helped immesureably. I don't yell at the dogs but I do get between them and "loom over" the starer because I am the leader and that behaviour is not allowed. I also used to spend some time each day with them both on leads close together by my side while I read the paper or played on the computer.
my suggestion would be that Blossom and Lily aren't sure who the boss is and will continue to challenge each other until it is clear that the boss is YOU
my suggestion would be that Blossom and Lily aren't sure who the boss is and will continue to challenge each other until it is clear that the boss is YOU
Sorry I disagree.
IF Blossom was trying to be 'boss or leader' (if you believe in such things which I don't) then she would not go and sit on her own in the kitchen or try to get away from Lily, she would take her on and make Lily back down. She would not just growl at the other dogs, she would actively pick a fight.
Something is making Blossom want to be on her own - away from the other dogs. I don't think she is 'sulking'. Preventing her from retreating will not solve the problem.
You need to find out the reason for her wanting to be on her own away from the others. It could be a medical thing - maybe she is in pain and does not want them jumping all over her, maybe she is just happier on her own sometimes. The growling is her telling them to leave her alone. Please don't push contact on her when she is growling (and please whatever you do don't scruff her) - I suspect her only response then will be to bite - if she is growling out of fear and you shout or scruff her you are leaving her no other option.
Remember dogs can either get out of the way (as she is doing) or if she is backed into a corner and cannot leave then all she can do is fight.
I think you really need more help than you can find over the internet - you really need someone who can see for themselves what is happening - as owners we miss so many things, sometimes it takes an outsider to see what is actually going on.
IF Blossom was trying to be 'boss or leader' (if you believe in such things which I don't) then she would not go and sit on her own in the kitchen or try to get away from Lily, she would take her on and make Lily back down. She would not just growl at the other dogs, she would actively pick a fight.
Something is making Blossom want to be on her own - away from the other dogs. I don't think she is 'sulking'. Preventing her from retreating will not solve the problem.
You need to find out the reason for her wanting to be on her own away from the others. It could be a medical thing - maybe she is in pain and does not want them jumping all over her, maybe she is just happier on her own sometimes. The growling is her telling them to leave her alone. Please don't push contact on her when she is growling (and please whatever you do don't scruff her) - I suspect her only response then will be to bite - if she is growling out of fear and you shout or scruff her you are leaving her no other option.
Remember dogs can either get out of the way (as she is doing) or if she is backed into a corner and cannot leave then all she can do is fight.
I think you really need more help than you can find over the internet - you really need someone who can see for themselves what is happening - as owners we miss so many things, sometimes it takes an outsider to see what is actually going on.
Hi all,
Kita - I have to agree with you, and I have just contacted a dog behaviourist and trainer who is coming out to spend a day with us next weekend!
He is going to do an assessment on the whole pack, and we are going to take Lily and Blossom for a walk together to see what's going on in their relationship. He will also study them in the home too.
I thought it would cost hundreds of pounds to do this, but he is a very reasonable �75 for a half day, and �45 for follow-up visits.
We talked about letting Blossom find a new home, but he said not to think too negatively about the situation at the moment, as he has had lots of success in the past with similar disputes.
I will not scruff Blossom anymore - or shout at her. As you say, she is suffering enough already. For the moment I am just letting her do her own thing, which basically consists of sitting in her basket alone, or sitting in the garden, alone. Poor baby.
Pipsy - Yes, Lilly is definitely 'staring her down'. And Blossom is always the one to admit defeat. She literally (i know this sounds insane) TIP TOES past Lilly with her head down like she wants to be invisible. It's so sad to watch.
Woofgang - I watch Ceaser too! I have such admiration for that guy! I've tried some of his 'looming' tactics with my chihuahuas and they work really well. If they start to get a bit too giddy or agressive (they are only a yr old), I will give a quick pinch at the back of the neck and the "shh" command and they calm down straight away.
Sadly, none of his tactics would ever work on Lilly and Blossom. Their problems are way more complicated.
So, in conclusion, I'm hoping to God that Alan, the behaviourist guy, can rebuild our little family. If I could have him here today I would!
X
Kita - I have to agree with you, and I have just contacted a dog behaviourist and trainer who is coming out to spend a day with us next weekend!
He is going to do an assessment on the whole pack, and we are going to take Lily and Blossom for a walk together to see what's going on in their relationship. He will also study them in the home too.
I thought it would cost hundreds of pounds to do this, but he is a very reasonable �75 for a half day, and �45 for follow-up visits.
We talked about letting Blossom find a new home, but he said not to think too negatively about the situation at the moment, as he has had lots of success in the past with similar disputes.
I will not scruff Blossom anymore - or shout at her. As you say, she is suffering enough already. For the moment I am just letting her do her own thing, which basically consists of sitting in her basket alone, or sitting in the garden, alone. Poor baby.
Pipsy - Yes, Lilly is definitely 'staring her down'. And Blossom is always the one to admit defeat. She literally (i know this sounds insane) TIP TOES past Lilly with her head down like she wants to be invisible. It's so sad to watch.
Woofgang - I watch Ceaser too! I have such admiration for that guy! I've tried some of his 'looming' tactics with my chihuahuas and they work really well. If they start to get a bit too giddy or agressive (they are only a yr old), I will give a quick pinch at the back of the neck and the "shh" command and they calm down straight away.
Sadly, none of his tactics would ever work on Lilly and Blossom. Their problems are way more complicated.
So, in conclusion, I'm hoping to God that Alan, the behaviourist guy, can rebuild our little family. If I could have him here today I would!
X
Hi all, I dont know if any of you decided to subscribe to this thread or if I'm just typing this answer to myself!
I just thought I'd let everyone know how we got on with the dog behavourist on Saturday.
He looked at the whole pack and asked us lots of questions about the dog's behaviour and their daily routine etc.
For all those of you who thought it was a leadership issue, it looks like you were right. We had an excellent 5 hour session with him and he said they were stressed because they didn't know who was in charge of situations as they arose.
The training centred around us thinking more like pack leaders and the techniques he showed us were almost completely the same as Ceaser Milan uses in The Dog Whisperer.
Probably this is going to sound like an exxageration but its genuinely true - as soon as we started using the techniques, i.e. within the first hour, the dogs were ALL tons calmer, ESPECIALLY Blossom, who laid down and went to sleep in the middle of all the other dogs. Normally she would skulk off into the kitchen, but when she saw us taking charge of the other dogs she calmed down soo much!
Since then, we have all made huge efforts to keep up the training and the dogs are all calmer and more integrated as a pack.
For those of you who knew about the trouble we had between the westies (lily and blossom), I went into the kitchen last night, and lily and blos had literally both squeezed themselves into the same bed (even though the other bed was empty), and were curled up together fast asleep. That's the first time I've seen them do that since they were pups.
Anyway, thank you all so much for your help and advice!
Hugs x
I just thought I'd let everyone know how we got on with the dog behavourist on Saturday.
He looked at the whole pack and asked us lots of questions about the dog's behaviour and their daily routine etc.
For all those of you who thought it was a leadership issue, it looks like you were right. We had an excellent 5 hour session with him and he said they were stressed because they didn't know who was in charge of situations as they arose.
The training centred around us thinking more like pack leaders and the techniques he showed us were almost completely the same as Ceaser Milan uses in The Dog Whisperer.
Probably this is going to sound like an exxageration but its genuinely true - as soon as we started using the techniques, i.e. within the first hour, the dogs were ALL tons calmer, ESPECIALLY Blossom, who laid down and went to sleep in the middle of all the other dogs. Normally she would skulk off into the kitchen, but when she saw us taking charge of the other dogs she calmed down soo much!
Since then, we have all made huge efforts to keep up the training and the dogs are all calmer and more integrated as a pack.
For those of you who knew about the trouble we had between the westies (lily and blossom), I went into the kitchen last night, and lily and blos had literally both squeezed themselves into the same bed (even though the other bed was empty), and were curled up together fast asleep. That's the first time I've seen them do that since they were pups.
Anyway, thank you all so much for your help and advice!
Hugs x
make ur dog submit 2 u NOT by hurting it just pin ur dog down on the floor by the chest do NOT let go till she is calm that will make u the dominant 1 by doing that use both hands if u have to but dont hurt her an i dont mean just the 1 thats growling cause i dont think shes the problame i mean the 1 thats stareing the other 1 out 2 cause shes the 1 thats chalenging the other 1 2 a fight by staring at her trust me i know
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