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Fathers sudden death

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Chellie | 16:43 Sun 04th Mar 2007 | Civil
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Father has suddenly passed away. Younger sis and I are next of kin. Appears there is no will. He does not own a house, rents! Also appears he has quite an amount of debts. (3 credit cards anyway...one possibly with insurance) We actually not been in contact with him for several years and now we have had to arrange funeral and sort out his belongings. Is it advisable to contact a solicitor or how do i go about being the administrator and what are the next steps we need to take to sort out his finances. Scottish law and any advice welcome. Thanks x
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I send you my condolences. Scottish law is different from UK law, but I do not think you have any liability for his debts which may have to be settled out of his estate if he has any assets left. If there is no money to pay for his funeral, you may be entitled to get a grant and possibly your undertaken can advise about this, or a Citizens Advice Bureau.
The Age Concern website may have some Fact Sheets which may help you in deciding how you can handle his affairs.
If he really is badly in debt you may be better off to write off the funeral expenses and leave it to the credit card companies to sort things out for themselves. They will either decide to administer the estate themselves (I assume Scottish law allow this - English law definitely does) or just write off the debts.

In order to apply to be administrator you need to have a fairly precise idea of all his assets and liabilities anyway - so establishing this is the first step. Whether you follow through or not depends on what you find out.

You have no personal liability for his debts - be firm if anyone tries to persuade you to pay them - which they may.
Question Author
Thankyou both for your replies.

One of his credit cards has a life insurance policy with it which states in the paperwork they will pay up to �20,000 on a death. I dont really know whether this means ALL his other debts too or his debt with that particular credit card?
I also did not realise the credit card people may take this on themselves. I will make contact with them after the cremation tomorrow.

My sister and I went to his house and collected as much paperwork as we could find and have gone through it, seperating it all into piles. I now just have to make a note of the individuals debts from this. And they are all debts unfortunately, at least �10,000 that we know of at the moment!

Can you tell me, I am glad to hear we should not be held responsible for his debts, and I will definately hold firm on that, however how far back do we have to go with his debts? I noticed some are from his previous address, dated 1999?

His cremation and funeral director bills are being paid by my husband and I. So therefore I am going to appoint my self the administrator. Thankyou for the link to age concern I will certainly have a look there.

I have never had to deal with this sort of thing before, so am very green. Thankyou again for your sound advice. x
If that insurance policy says 'up to' �20000 then it will almost certainly only cover the card it is associated with. Double check with that company though. (If he hadn't been paying the monthly payments it's probably invalid anyway)

I think the first step is to establish if there are any assets at all - contents of house, oddments in bank account, car, etc. If there are, the first claim on them is towards paying the funeral bill.

If there is anything left over then the unsecured creditors will get it - or more likely a small percentage each.

It might help to buy or get from the library a copy of the Which Guide to Wills and Probate (my rather old copy has sections on Scotland in it) or something similar.
If after reading through it you feel happy about DIY then go ahead. It's not difficult, but understandably some people feel that they have no time or cannot cope. Personally I found it kept my mind off other things and an interesting exercise, but everyone is different.

As to old debts, the law in England is that they cannot be pursued through the courts after 6 years from the last contact, request for payment, reminder, etc. Don't know if Scotland is the same. It may be worth doing a credit reference check on him to see if it turns anything up.

As to using a solicitor, it's up to you. It will cost you, with little chance of getting it back, and it's not legally necessary. But it could buy you peace of mind that no-one was going to come out of the woodwork and bite you.

The term in Scotland is Executor-dative, not Administrator, I've just read. It comes to the same thing though.

I dont know if this applys in scotland but does here you can claim funeral payments if he was claiming benifits

http://www.helptheaged.org.uk/en-gb/AdviceSupp ort/FinancialAdvice/HelpClaimingBenefits/Funer alPayments/as_funeral_160106_2.htm
Hi Chellie, my condolences for your loss.

I am a student of Scots Law so I think I can help you.

As your father has died without making a will he has died 'intestate'. The law that decides how your father's estate is distributed is the 'Succession (Scotland) Act 1964.

When a person in Scotland dies (with or without a will [testate or intestate], all debts are paid first and then the funeral expenses are paid - including outfits for the wife and daughters of the deceased. Once those debts are settled, then what is left will be distributed under the rules of intestacy.

Since your father has died intestate he has not appointed an 'Executor' (male) or 'Executrix' female. In which case an exexutor/executrix will be appointed by the Sheriff at your father's local Sheriff Court. The next-of-kin apply to the Sheriff for this - so yes, you'll probably need the help of a solicitor, or try a Citizens Advice Bureaux, or Law Centre if money is very tight and one is near you - let me know where you are and I'll try to give you more help if this is the case.

It sounds from what you say that his estate will be exhausted by the debts he owes. But you need to first assess what assets he may have. He rents, but he may have a life insurance policy, shares, furniture, and bank savings. These assets all form part of your father's estate and they may be substantial. All his credit card debts (perhaps amongst others) would be repaid from those assets before his surviving spouse or children would receive anything.

If you let me know what town and postcode you live in I'll tell you where your local Sheriff Court is and we can start the ball rolling - if needed I'll try to help you through it all -though I am inexperienced myself.
Question Author
Stu dent ...thanks for all that, my mind is spinning with all the information that I need to process.

Can you tell me, as there really is no estate and NO money in his account and no savings etc, do I have to go through the courts to be appointed the executrix?

The furniture all belongs to the landlord. He does'nt have enough personal belongings to claim anything from them. It really is just rubbish.

He was paying payment protection with his cards so they have been sent his death certificate, and they said they would close the accounts.

Can I not just deal with what paperwork I got from his house and leave it at that?

I also need to add that I havent know him most of my life, and the last time I saw him was 6 years ago in tesco for 5 mins. But as I am next of kin I feel out of courtesy that I should just deal with what I can.

How would the situation be if I was not there to deal with his affairs? Legally how would it all stand?

He was based in Inverness. I have been in touch with CAB anfd they advised me to get in touch with the sherrif court but I a little loath to take that step at the moment.

All advice very welcome. and i probably got loads more Q's too.

dzug I got that book you was talking about but found it mostly to do with wills. And in this case there is definately no will.

Thanks others for help and contacts x
Cheers
Hello Chellie,

You are not OBLIGED to take responsibility for funeral arrangements - and you may feel you have good reasons for not doing so. If that is the case then your father's local authority (under Public Health legislation) would take responsibility for making the funeral arrangements - or the health authority if he died in hospital.

I found an excellent article about this type of breavement service offered by Glasgow City Council http://www.glasgow.gov.uk/NR/rdonlyres/D5141C2 B-0A40-4C17-9AE3-C18F77CAB136/0/February2004p1 819.pdf -and I then called them on the number at the end of the article for further information - they were very helpful. The also explained that relatives can be kept informed of the arrangements being made and that families of the deceased can get involved with and attend the service.

So in the first instance you may wish to contact Highland Council http://www.highland.gov.uk/ and here is some information on their Bereavement and Cremations services. http://www.highland.gov.uk/livinghere/birthsde athsandmarriages/burialsandcremations/?wbc_pur pose=Basic&WBCMODE=PresentationUnpubl

If you decide to go down the route of organising and paying for the service yourself the Sheriff Court in Inverness might be able to point you in the right direction.

http://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/locations/index.a sp?crt=inv
http://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/locatio
Question Author
Hi Stu thankyou for that helpful information, I will have a look at the links you've given, however my sister and I have already organised his cremation which took place last Tuesday. My husband has already paid for the funeral director costs. We are still awaiting the cremation bill.

My dilemma is in sorting out his affairs correctly without any comeback on myself. He died suddenly at home. He was only 57 y/o.

He stayed in rented accomodation which is piad up to April. Tthere are only the debts to sort out that he owes. A couple credit cards, council tax, his phone contract and a store card account.

I was at the bank today and there may be enough to pay off the debts other than his credit cards. However as I was saying earlier he has been paying protection fees on these.
So in theory they should be written off up to any debt to the value of �20,000.

Legally am I ok to sort out his arrangements without going to a court?
Your father's debts must be repaid out of whatever assets he leaves. He appears to have left no assets, so his creditors cannot be paid and they will have to write-off the debt.

As next-of-kin, the Sheriff Clerk will probably appoint you as Executrix (the female version of the executor). I don't know if the Court can force you to be an executrix/executor but if they can't, then don't be!!

I found some helpful information for you at the Scottish Executive's website. Surviving relatives are not personally liable for a deceased relative's debts - but an executor/executrix might be - so again, if you don't have to be executrix, then don't be. But this only applies if the executor pays say creditor A before B and B had a better right to being paid first. B then may decide to sue the executor for paying A when he had a stronger right.

But if there is absolutely no assets at all whatsoever, then there is no possibility of this problem arising - no creditor can be paid.

I'll find out if you can be forced into being the executrix. If you do have to be executrix, it might be that all you need do is write to his creditors explaining that your father left no assets.

Forgot to send you the link:

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/library3/misc/wtad- 02.asp

If you do become the executrix and you have a creditor who is being difficult, then even letting them know you may need to involve a solicitor may be enough to get them to back off. Because the legal costs also get paid out of your father's estate - before other creditors. They have nothing to gain it would seem by chasing you.
Question Author
thankyou Stu you have been so helpful and I appreciate the trouble you have gone to, to find out information for me. It really is a minefield out there, I admire you deciding to take a career in this sort of stuff. Most of it just goes over my head....At least you'll be learning something new here yourself. lol

Yeah I'm with you on his debts being paid "if" the money is in his account to do so. That would be my first priority.

Reading up on the law myself I had noticed that I could become liable myself for his debts should I be appointed an executrix, this is one of the reasons, under the circumstances of our relationship.....or non-existent one.....that I have been wary of contacting the sheriff court.

I think I will plod along as I have been, writting to the companies that I know he has a debt with and send them his death certificate with cover note that I am his daughter and there are no assets known of. Unless of course it appears that I really have to be appointed executrix.

I also noticed in most sites I've looked at for information that there is not very much advice to someone in my situation. i.e: where someone dies with debts and has no will or any assets to speak of. I would think in this day and age it would be the norm.

I too will check up on the Scottish Executive site.

Thanks again Chellie
Question Author
we appear to be tying at the same time...lol
Your welcome Chellie. it's a pleasure helping someone who genuinely needs help - unlike some of the shysters on here;-) Law is very interesting, but it's also complex and involves TONS of reading!!! But helping people is what drives me to do it and if I can earn a good living doing that then I'll be a happy man. This site is great for practice in problem solving - and that's what lawyers do.

Make sure you make clear when writing to the creditors that you are NOT the executrix of your father's estate, but are merely informing them as a matter of courtesy. But as stated, if there are genuinley NO assets, then the creditors cannot argue about who had a better right to be paid first etc - and that means no possible comeback on you.

If you need anymore help then I'll be around here early next week. I'll be back at work (I study part-time) for the next few days.

Best of luck,
Stu
Question Author
Ok and again many thanks for your help.

I will certainly shout if I need any more advice. Keep an eye out! lol

Good luck with the studies. I'm sure judging by the information you have provided me that you will turn out to be an excellent lawyer.

Cheers Chellie
Question Author
Hi stu
Got a couple letters in, one council tax, mentions that sorry to hear of death of Mr X. The want to know who is dealing with his affairs and the following:
a) has the sherrif court confirmed the person dealing with the estate and if so from what date? (not done this at all)
b) name of person now liable for the council tax? (Is this the landlady of the property. I believe the house is to remain empty?)
c) name & address of solicitor dealing with the estate? (none)

So i was thinking of firing off a letter with your last advice that I am not the executrix of his estate, that there are no assets and that I am merely informing them of this facts out of courtesy. Would this be enough? Is it all I have to say?

The other letter is a debt recovery for paypal. I thought i may send them a similar letter.

Suggestions please in writing these letters and getting it right where i wont have any comeback!

Thanks Chellie
Hi Chellie, forgot all about you:-)

Proceed in the way you have indicated - you're doing everything right!

Your father's creditors want paying. You just have to let them know that no one has been charged with dealing with your father's estate and yes, as a matter of courtesy only. Make them aware that you are not the executrix. You are giving them the information that may help them settle matters with the deceased. You then need to make the creditors aware that there are no assets - only debts.

This should hopefully be enough for them to write off the debts owed. As next-of-kin you are not obliged to pay your father's debts - though loan companies would love this and are trying to push for legislation making the next-of-kin liable for debts due to an increasing amount of people dying before their debts can be repaid.

But even if you were appointed as Executrix by the Court, the Executrix (or Executor) can only repay creditors from the assets of the deceased's estate. So don't worry!

The executor can only ever be personally liable if they unfairly give preference to one creditor over another. Since there are no assets whatsoever this problem cannot possibly arise.

Question Author
ok cheers Stu..but to throw the spanners in the work!!

Got a new dilema.....oh the joys!!!

Found a letter at the weekend, of which I telephoned the people on Monday. Appears he paid into a pension for an employer in the 1980's. The woman I spoke to has said the pension was frozen when he was made redundent. Therefore it appears, but at the trustees discretion, that there may be a lump sum due for the payments he made while employed. It also appears that my dad probably forgot all about it, as the letter was only for an update of his address details! luck or not...who knows!!

I have sent the death certificate, and I await further information. I dont really know much else at this stage.

I am going to the bank at the end of the month to close his account, and perhaps with any money still in the account open a executors account till all is sorted out.

So what does this payment come under? Is it part of his estate? I havent a clue how much it would be, and she said it would be paid direct to his next of kin...me and my sister!!

Do I declare this to the bank and other debtors?

Now please do not forget about me!!! lol
Needing your sound advice .....again!!!! PLEASE
The existence of the pension changes everything!! Now that the estate has assets, creditors will want to be paid. This means you must appoint an executor and the easiest and cheapest option is for that executor/executrix to be you, since a trustee appointed by the Court would cost money and would itself count as a debt on the estate.

My advice is to contact Inverness Sheriff Court and ask them to appoint an executor to sort out your father's estate. Then, write to the creditors and explain that you are in the process of gathering in the assets and debts of the estate. Once you do that, you can then identify who gets paid what.

You are also a creditor though, Chellie. The costs of the funeral are a debt on the estate and you are entitled to recoup the cost of that (including the reasonable costs of clothing bought for the funeral by the spouse and daughters of the deceased) from the assets available - before any other creditor gets paid.

It will only get slightly tricky if there is some residue after that, because if there is say �2000 of debt owed to say three creditors, but only �1000 left in which to pay them, you need to identify what creditor has more right to be paid first (or second after you I suppose) - probably Highland Council since they are a government body.

If there is �5000 left then all the creditors can be repaid and there is �3000 left to share between the beneficiaries. If there is no will and only you and your sister, then you share that 3k equally.

Sorry for forgetting about you - I keep forgetting to check the 'civil' page.
Question Author

Can i not just wait till i get a reply on this pension thing first, b4 going to the court?

That is providing there is enough money there to do so. The funeral costs were �2,000 that I and hubby paid.

Is it a necessary step to take? Can I not just pay off any debtors with the money but not be an executrix?

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