To All Those On Here Moaning About Israel....

[ToraToraTora]

No one seems to have an answer to the basic point that I and others have been making. Are they simply supposed to absorb the missiles and do nothing? I asked Gromit on his thread but the silence was deafening.

[Zacs-Master]

//Anyhoo, in the end nothing was resolved.//

Another AB strap line?

[keyplus90]

Tamborine – I can’t understand your senseless argument about Pakistan. Pakistani people were not brought in from thousands of miles away to give them a place in someone else’s house.

Naomi – Without going into the details about what else Quran says about Jews, where does it say in that verse that the promised land was Palestine? Or where Palestine is now? Were Moses (pbuh) and Pharoah in Palestine or Egypt? Mind you Palestine was still a different area out of Pharoah’s direct control even at that time. Then my question is still there. Are you saying that Western countries are acting upon Biblical quotations by giving Jews a place in Palestine and by backing them up for whatever they do there now? Please answer Yes, or no.

[tamborine]

Keyplus wont read this but Ed likes supporting links.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration

[tamborine]

Jews occupied that land before islam originated.

[tamborine]

Yes keyplus, coz Jesus was a jew and the backbone of christianity.

[Hypognosis]

Promised land or not, didn't they originally lose it (Judea) due to conquest? By Mamluks/Egypt/other?

I'm ashamed to admit it but wars of conquest are not a thing of the past and this clearly is one.

[jno]

the Canaanites were in Israel before the Jews. But God ordered the Jews to wipe them out, and they did. "Both man and woman, young and old, ox and sheep and donkey, with the edge of the sword."

Later, the Jews were expelled themselves. I don't know why that sort of genocidal behaviour entitled them to get the land of Canaan back again after WW2.

[Hypognosis]

p.s. there are a few key episodes of "The World at War" which ought to be made compulsory viewing for all Israelis, including new inward migrants.
However, the intention - to show how their current actions parallel the pre-death squads/concentration camp era, of slow erosion of liberties, ghettoisation, demonisation and so on - would be lost on them as (i) they'll be rooting for the victims and (ii) no-one ever accepts being lectured that they are wrong in how they live their life.

I never understood why the 1940s Jews never fought back until recently - any individual act only brings down "tenfold retribution" on your fellow community members. Palestinians probably really get up Israelis' noses by doing exactly the kind of fighting back they were to timid (ok, de-weaponed, by Hitler) to do.

[DrFilth]

some did fight back but when you have no weapons and your enemy has lots plus tanks etc it is very hard


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Ghetto_Uprising

[Hypognosis]

Exactly, Dr. Filth

There's an episode of 'HARDtalk' just finished now - Zeinab Badawi talking to a former Israeli deputy defence minister. Should be available on iPlayer by the morning.

[Hypognosis]

@keyplus

at partition, many Pakistanis-to-be were uprooted from their homes and farms and had to walk hundreds of miles to reach the newly drawn border and vice versa for non-Muslims who suddenly found themselves in the wrong place. Villages split in two with the border drawn right through them and so on.

As analogies go, it wasn't bad, particularly as it was British officials drawing lines on their map.

Dismantling an empire is a messy business.

If you like nature documentaries then I don't need to remind you that even chimpanzees have their own 'turf wars'. Humans have probably been killing each other since before we even had language. :-(

[naomi24]

Keyplus, the bible makes the location of the ‘Promised Land’ very clear, but where do you think it might have been? Egypt? When Mohammed constructed the Quran he based it on the bible – there is no doubt whatsoever about that. However, because his account is vague and inaccurate some Muslim scholars claim that Egypt was the ‘Promised Land’ – but it’s a silly and ill-considered argument really. Would it have been more acceptable in today’s world for Egyptians to be ejected from their land in favour of newly arriving Jews?

//Are you saying that Western countries are acting upon Biblical quotations by giving Jews a place in Palestine and by backing them up for whatever they do there now? Please answer Yes, or no.//


In effect, yes. The Jews’ claim to the land is solely biblical, which realistically means they have no justifiable claim at all. However, they’re there now – that isn’t going to change – so all the arguing about why they’re there isn’t going to bring resolution to the problem we have. They’re not going to abandon the land, and the Palestinians aren’t going to concede defeat – so what’s the sensible answer?

To answer your other question, both the Pharaoh and Moses were in Egypt but neither were in Palestine - and the Bible tells us precisely why Moses wasn't in Palestine. Bit mean of God I always thought - but that's God for you. ;o)