Body & Soul2 mins ago
Britain's Oldest Working Men's Club Forced To Close
What a shame for it's members, and just because they don't allow women to members
I've lived in a northern town which had a WM club. Women could become 'associate members' (were allowed into the club if accompanied and signed in by a member). So what's the problem? It's not as if they don't let women in is it?
They're a place where men can go to get a cheap pint and have a game of pool, darts, snooker, or shuffle a few dominoes around a table - without having the hustle, bustle and noisy music of a pub.
Don't think many women (other than wives/partners of members) would want to drink in a WM club anyway, they're hardly you're average pick-up joint!
Equal rights strikes again
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I've lived in a northern town which had a WM club. Women could become 'associate members' (were allowed into the club if accompanied and signed in by a member). So what's the problem? It's not as if they don't let women in is it?
They're a place where men can go to get a cheap pint and have a game of pool, darts, snooker, or shuffle a few dominoes around a table - without having the hustle, bustle and noisy music of a pub.
Don't think many women (other than wives/partners of members) would want to drink in a WM club anyway, they're hardly you're average pick-up joint!
Equal rights strikes again
http://
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Just for the heck of it, Pixie, I googled "public breasfeeding" and the 6th entry, labelled "images of public breastfeeding", shows a blonde woman on the left whose breast appears to be pretty-well exposed to me!
I'll leave it there, though, as I have no need to visit strip clubs or search online for such views. In any case, my original contribution here had little actually to do with breast-feeding as such but rather more to do with gender and exclusivity in clubs.
I'll leave it there, though, as I have no need to visit strip clubs or search online for such views. In any case, my original contribution here had little actually to do with breast-feeding as such but rather more to do with gender and exclusivity in clubs.
QM- "Locally, there is a breast-feeding support group/club where mothers and babies can meet informally to discuss the problems and/or delights of the process and receive 'hands-on' training in how to carry it out effectively.
Is there any good reason why I - an adult male - should have an application to join forbidden? I'm sure it would be, so, I can't see how MEN'S clubs should be obliged to have WOMEN members."
I don't think your analogy holds in this instance.
Breastfeeding is exclusively female because nature makes it so - there is no reason why a man would gain anything from joining a support group for a task in which he is incapable of taking part - although in these enlightened times, i would not agree that this is of itself a reason for exclusion.
However, in the case of WMC's, the notion that men needed to 'get away' from their wives, and women in general, and simply relax among their 'own kind' is seriously outdated, and that is why equality guidelines exist.
I think its a shame that such levels of stubborness have deprived everyone of social facilities - but it does underline the mindset of the gentlemen in question.
That said, in the wider context, drinking habbits have changed within the last generation, and people no longer drink as a social activity - they drink to be drunk as quickly and cheaply as possible, so the days of all WMC's - those that admit women included, are certainly numbered.
It's a shame, but time does move on.
Is there any good reason why I - an adult male - should have an application to join forbidden? I'm sure it would be, so, I can't see how MEN'S clubs should be obliged to have WOMEN members."
I don't think your analogy holds in this instance.
Breastfeeding is exclusively female because nature makes it so - there is no reason why a man would gain anything from joining a support group for a task in which he is incapable of taking part - although in these enlightened times, i would not agree that this is of itself a reason for exclusion.
However, in the case of WMC's, the notion that men needed to 'get away' from their wives, and women in general, and simply relax among their 'own kind' is seriously outdated, and that is why equality guidelines exist.
I think its a shame that such levels of stubborness have deprived everyone of social facilities - but it does underline the mindset of the gentlemen in question.
That said, in the wider context, drinking habbits have changed within the last generation, and people no longer drink as a social activity - they drink to be drunk as quickly and cheaply as possible, so the days of all WMC's - those that admit women included, are certainly numbered.
It's a shame, but time does move on.
Sorry, QM, but your analogy with the breast-feeding club is so specious as to deserve no further comment.
The problem this club faced is that it needed lottery funding to repair the fabric of the building. This was not forthcoming because such funding is only available to organisations that adhere to equality legislation. There is nothing to prevent this private members’ club from continuing to operate its men only policy (or to be more accurate, men as full members with women as second class members with restricted rights). But if it wants public funding it must change its rules. I would go further than that, in fact, and say that if it wants to be accepted as a 21st century institution (funded or not) it needs to seriously reconsider its outlook (though, apparently, there’s no longer any need).
It really sums up the mindset of people who run and frequent such places. They would rather see the place closed down than accept a perfectly reasonable change to their rules (which currently deny more than 50% of the population to membership). Quite why any man would want to be deprived of female company whilst socialising is beyond me and why they would want to join a club whose members resent the presence of their ladies is very puzzling. Further, why any woman would want to join a club that so clearly resents them joining is equally baffling. Those who accept so-called “associate membership” (which presumably allows them to make the tea and mop the kharzis whilst denying them the right to play snooker or even to listen to a debate about the future of their club) must be deranged.
The problem this club faced is that it needed lottery funding to repair the fabric of the building. This was not forthcoming because such funding is only available to organisations that adhere to equality legislation. There is nothing to prevent this private members’ club from continuing to operate its men only policy (or to be more accurate, men as full members with women as second class members with restricted rights). But if it wants public funding it must change its rules. I would go further than that, in fact, and say that if it wants to be accepted as a 21st century institution (funded or not) it needs to seriously reconsider its outlook (though, apparently, there’s no longer any need).
It really sums up the mindset of people who run and frequent such places. They would rather see the place closed down than accept a perfectly reasonable change to their rules (which currently deny more than 50% of the population to membership). Quite why any man would want to be deprived of female company whilst socialising is beyond me and why they would want to join a club whose members resent the presence of their ladies is very puzzling. Further, why any woman would want to join a club that so clearly resents them joining is equally baffling. Those who accept so-called “associate membership” (which presumably allows them to make the tea and mop the kharzis whilst denying them the right to play snooker or even to listen to a debate about the future of their club) must be deranged.
Sorry, NJ, but no club can admit women on less favourable terms;the old practice of barring women from certain bars, or admitting "lady members" at lower subscriptions but restricting their use of facilities,and so on, has been illegal for years.
When the matter was being debated in Parliament, this proved an objection. I remember one peer, who spoke for a club, protesting "But we need lady members; they provide a vital part of the club's income!" You may imagine the reaction of the Baronesses !
This club may remain male only or admit women on equal terms. St James's clubs have opted for one or the other. The decision may depend on their finances !
When the matter was being debated in Parliament, this proved an objection. I remember one peer, who spoke for a club, protesting "But we need lady members; they provide a vital part of the club's income!" You may imagine the reaction of the Baronesses !
This club may remain male only or admit women on equal terms. St James's clubs have opted for one or the other. The decision may depend on their finances !
To use your own words twice, Andy, I'M probably "seriously outdated" and I DO still "drink as a social activity." Perhaps the latter is merely evidence of the former, though I must say that this very evening, I shall be in The George again and in the company of like-minded people, so I'm far from alone.
NJ, given Fred's response, your view on the legal aspects of single-sex establishments would appear to be more 'specious' than my analogy.
I intended it as a joke:
a. since I helped bring up six children and so have almost certainly seen more breast-feeding than the average man and
b. I fully support women's right to privacy if they so choose whilst doing so.
In other words, I do not think that I should be allowed to join a breast-feeding club and it is for that very reason that I do think that BOTH genders have a perfect right to meet exclusively in circumstances of their own deciding.
Pixie, I went no further than the set of photos I referred to earlier, but I'm sure there will be more of such pictures - less photogenic, perhaps - elsewhere on the web.
NJ, given Fred's response, your view on the legal aspects of single-sex establishments would appear to be more 'specious' than my analogy.
I intended it as a joke:
a. since I helped bring up six children and so have almost certainly seen more breast-feeding than the average man and
b. I fully support women's right to privacy if they so choose whilst doing so.
In other words, I do not think that I should be allowed to join a breast-feeding club and it is for that very reason that I do think that BOTH genders have a perfect right to meet exclusively in circumstances of their own deciding.
Pixie, I went no further than the set of photos I referred to earlier, but I'm sure there will be more of such pictures - less photogenic, perhaps - elsewhere on the web.
QM - sadly, the notion of social drinking is on the wane, replaced by the modern culture of drinking simply to be drunk, rather than enjoying a drink taken slowly in convivial company.
Were I someone who drinks alcohol, i would no doubt be joining my local equivalent of your local, but such pubs have virtually disappeared from where i live, and the alternative makes an evening in the town a largely unpleasant experience.
It really is a sign of getting older, isn't it.
Next week - why do they have police officers who have clearly not reached an age where they need a daily shave?
Were I someone who drinks alcohol, i would no doubt be joining my local equivalent of your local, but such pubs have virtually disappeared from where i live, and the alternative makes an evening in the town a largely unpleasant experience.
It really is a sign of getting older, isn't it.
Next week - why do they have police officers who have clearly not reached an age where they need a daily shave?
Quite, Andy. The thing I notice even more than the smallish, boyish cops is the language changes, especially when I visit my home town in the north-east of Scotland every year.
My grand-children look at me as if I'm some sort of weirdo - I expect they're right, in a way - when I say something in the local dialect as it was when I actually lived there. Quite gone, most of it, swept away in the flood of modern communication methods such as text-messages...sorry, txtmsgs.
My grand-children look at me as if I'm some sort of weirdo - I expect they're right, in a way - when I say something in the local dialect as it was when I actually lived there. Quite gone, most of it, swept away in the flood of modern communication methods such as text-messages...sorry, txtmsgs.
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