Twitching & Birdwatching1 min ago
Won't believe in God but will make sure my kids do
39 Answers
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7151346 .stm
I find this pretty disheartening. Nice that he admits he doesn't believe in God, risking alienating the God Bods, but to then say you'll educate the kids in a christian tradition? How messed up is that? It's not like you're telling them about Santa and the Tooth Fairy. You're telling them about he fundamentals of their existence, and how they were born into sin but redeemed by a man who lived 2000 years ago, who was kind of God himself, and who is now in a piece of bread in a box in church, and that they should do what they say in that church otherwise if they die they will go to a big fire for ever and ever. Then the kids hit 16 and realise Dad didn't believe any of this stuff himself, he just forced it on to them while they were stil to young to think their way out of it; JUST to keep the wife happy.
After having overdosed on spin/smoke and mirror hypocrytical politics for the last 10 years, I'm glad we've figured this guy out from the very start. What a weak little loser. Grrr.
I find this pretty disheartening. Nice that he admits he doesn't believe in God, risking alienating the God Bods, but to then say you'll educate the kids in a christian tradition? How messed up is that? It's not like you're telling them about Santa and the Tooth Fairy. You're telling them about he fundamentals of their existence, and how they were born into sin but redeemed by a man who lived 2000 years ago, who was kind of God himself, and who is now in a piece of bread in a box in church, and that they should do what they say in that church otherwise if they die they will go to a big fire for ever and ever. Then the kids hit 16 and realise Dad didn't believe any of this stuff himself, he just forced it on to them while they were stil to young to think their way out of it; JUST to keep the wife happy.
After having overdosed on spin/smoke and mirror hypocrytical politics for the last 10 years, I'm glad we've figured this guy out from the very start. What a weak little loser. Grrr.
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I dislike the implication from Nick Clegg that atheistic position is of less worth than his Catholic wife's beliefs. It publicly undermines atheism, and really quite offends me.
I'd like atheists the country over to be a lot more vocal, and I'm considering picketing the next spirituality convention that I come across with placards denouncing it all as deceitful lies that are undermining the human race.
I'd like atheists the country over to be a lot more vocal, and I'm considering picketing the next spirituality convention that I come across with placards denouncing it all as deceitful lies that are undermining the human race.
you mentioned child abuse, meredith, not me. I just said you don't know the meaning of the phrase. And you didn't answer my question about whether you think the non-religious Britain of today is a better or happier place than the country of, say, 50 years ago when more people went to church. It was a serious question (that is, I have no idea what your answer would be); but of course I respect your right to refuse to talk to anyone who disagrees with you. But that's what I call a hardline attitude.
Supernick, I'm not sure about his philosophy of knowledge either. He says:
"I have enormous respect for people who have religious faith," What does this mean? Why say it? Does he mean, he has respect for them as people? Why would atheism stop you respecting them as people? Does he mean he respects their religious ideas? If so, why declare yourself an atheist. I have friends who are christians. I respect them. I respect their right to believe what they want. But I think their ideas are a load of complete tosh, and that they are seriously deluded.
The link I put in is Mike Huckabee, ex-minister, could well be next president of World's Largest Superpower. Refutes idea that man evolved from primates.
A god botherer *in extremis* running the world. Bet that'll do a lot for US-Islam relations.
"I have enormous respect for people who have religious faith," What does this mean? Why say it? Does he mean, he has respect for them as people? Why would atheism stop you respecting them as people? Does he mean he respects their religious ideas? If so, why declare yourself an atheist. I have friends who are christians. I respect them. I respect their right to believe what they want. But I think their ideas are a load of complete tosh, and that they are seriously deluded.
The link I put in is Mike Huckabee, ex-minister, could well be next president of World's Largest Superpower. Refutes idea that man evolved from primates.
A god botherer *in extremis* running the world. Bet that'll do a lot for US-Islam relations.
Cetti: what's confusing about this: "I find this pretty disheartening. Nice that he admits he doesn't believe in God, risking alienating the God Bods, but to then say you'll educate the kids in a christian tradition? How messed up is that?""
?
That's what I wrote.
God is the being who created the universe/Universe and oversees its existence.
xcept that he don't exist.
?
That's what I wrote.
God is the being who created the universe/Universe and oversees its existence.
xcept that he don't exist.
Still think we've got to take this as a positive step albeit a baby one, cw America where 45% wouldn't vote for an athiest so who'd admit it?
http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007 /02/black_president_more_likely_than_mormon_or _atheist_/
http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007 /02/black_president_more_likely_than_mormon_or _atheist_/
Well, this is all a bit hysterical isn't it?
I agree that the hardline religious beliefs of Bush and Huckabee are a threat to right-minded democracy. And the idea that our politicians are making crucial decisions based on the hunch that "it's God's will" is terrifyingly irrational.
But this? I'm absolutely no fan of Nick 'Cameron-Lite' Clegg but it strikes me that he's put his head above the parapet and stated that he's an atheist. Good on him.
I don't see any hypocrisy or weakness in his position towards his kid. Maybe, like many of us atheists, he doesn't regard his disbelief in God as a badge of honour. Or something to wheel out to exert his intellectual superiority over believers.
What exactly is he supposed to do? He's fallen in love with a woman who's Christian. Does that have to be a deal-breaker? Should they not have brought a child into the world?
Or maybe they should each bring the child up in their own image, throwing contradictory messages at it to see which it picks? Like two dog owners in a park trying to see which one of them the dog likes best.
There isn't even a middle ground he can tread. Religion is clearly something that his wife feels passionate about (and he's not a tub-thumping naysayer against religion so it's not like he's reneging on any great proclamations). At a certain age, the child will ask why Daddy doesn't go to church and will be allowed to question his beliefs. Which is perfectly healthy.
....
I agree that the hardline religious beliefs of Bush and Huckabee are a threat to right-minded democracy. And the idea that our politicians are making crucial decisions based on the hunch that "it's God's will" is terrifyingly irrational.
But this? I'm absolutely no fan of Nick 'Cameron-Lite' Clegg but it strikes me that he's put his head above the parapet and stated that he's an atheist. Good on him.
I don't see any hypocrisy or weakness in his position towards his kid. Maybe, like many of us atheists, he doesn't regard his disbelief in God as a badge of honour. Or something to wheel out to exert his intellectual superiority over believers.
What exactly is he supposed to do? He's fallen in love with a woman who's Christian. Does that have to be a deal-breaker? Should they not have brought a child into the world?
Or maybe they should each bring the child up in their own image, throwing contradictory messages at it to see which it picks? Like two dog owners in a park trying to see which one of them the dog likes best.
There isn't even a middle ground he can tread. Religion is clearly something that his wife feels passionate about (and he's not a tub-thumping naysayer against religion so it's not like he's reneging on any great proclamations). At a certain age, the child will ask why Daddy doesn't go to church and will be allowed to question his beliefs. Which is perfectly healthy.
....
...
Equating this to child abuse is knickers-in-a-twistness of the highest order. And I agree with jno. It's insulting to people who have been abused AND to people who have been brought up religious and are happy, well-rounded people. Not all believers shove it down people's throats or expect it to inform the whole of society.
I'm perfectly content in my atheism, but this petty doing-down of people's beliefs is the sort of thing you find in a sixth form common room. People trying to attack faith with logic when what they're really doing is waggling their cleverness around like a big willy. Strewth. This is exactly why the Religion section of AB is so abysmal.
Equating this to child abuse is knickers-in-a-twistness of the highest order. And I agree with jno. It's insulting to people who have been abused AND to people who have been brought up religious and are happy, well-rounded people. Not all believers shove it down people's throats or expect it to inform the whole of society.
I'm perfectly content in my atheism, but this petty doing-down of people's beliefs is the sort of thing you find in a sixth form common room. People trying to attack faith with logic when what they're really doing is waggling their cleverness around like a big willy. Strewth. This is exactly why the Religion section of AB is so abysmal.
Isn't there an entirely reasonable middle ground Quinlad? - that the kid is brought up with neither belief pressed on it, and them makes its own decisions based on the evidence available?
I don't like the fact that atheism is treated as being a lack of spirituality rather than a positive attitude. The implication in this instance seems to be that if two people are married, one being atheist and the other Catholic, the child is brought up Catholic because it's better to have a belief in something rather than a belief in nothing. My atheism is an extremely positive vote for humankind, and I would expect it to have an equal footing in the raising of my children.
I don't like the fact that atheism is treated as being a lack of spirituality rather than a positive attitude. The implication in this instance seems to be that if two people are married, one being atheist and the other Catholic, the child is brought up Catholic because it's better to have a belief in something rather than a belief in nothing. My atheism is an extremely positive vote for humankind, and I would expect it to have an equal footing in the raising of my children.
well said, supernick.
If someone started a religion touting that 'The earth was created by a yellow marshmallow living in Basingstoke', many would (rightly) say to followers of such a religion 'What you believe is nonsense, where is the evidence for such a ludicrous claim?' But because christianity is so well established and part of our culture (5 days time we all eat a big bit of turkey in its memory), it's 'petty doing-down of people's beliefs is the sort of thing you find in a sixth form common room.' Let's do a quick recap on christianity to see where we should find some middle ground:
-all people born in state of emnity with creator as result of inherited evil from first parents
-on death, supernatural soul leaves body, goes to eternal fire, or, if person was baptised believer in man who had beard 2000 years ago, state of eternal bliss for ever and ever
-Organ of thought, memory, and will is not the brain (scientists deluded, see?) but some spiritual essence for which there is no evidence. Hard explaining alzheimer's, autism, etc etc, but never mind.
What a complete and utter load of crap. But I'm not allowed to say that because I'm 'intellectually arrogant'.
Why might forcing catholicism on those too young to properly appraise it be akin to 'child abuse'? Well, what are catholics teaching their kids.
-God loves you. He made you out of love. But there is a list of things that you should never do or you will go to a pit of fire for ever unless you say you are sorry.
-God made all your friends, but only the catholic ones like the ones you go to school with (and the 'invincibly ignorant') will go to be with Him forever in heaven. The muslims, protestants, jews, aborted foetuses, etc, will all go to the fiery pit.
-You must talk to god frequently in order to find out what you should do and so that things will go well for you. IE God can withhold what is best for you unless you ask
If someone started a religion touting that 'The earth was created by a yellow marshmallow living in Basingstoke', many would (rightly) say to followers of such a religion 'What you believe is nonsense, where is the evidence for such a ludicrous claim?' But because christianity is so well established and part of our culture (5 days time we all eat a big bit of turkey in its memory), it's 'petty doing-down of people's beliefs is the sort of thing you find in a sixth form common room.' Let's do a quick recap on christianity to see where we should find some middle ground:
-all people born in state of emnity with creator as result of inherited evil from first parents
-on death, supernatural soul leaves body, goes to eternal fire, or, if person was baptised believer in man who had beard 2000 years ago, state of eternal bliss for ever and ever
-Organ of thought, memory, and will is not the brain (scientists deluded, see?) but some spiritual essence for which there is no evidence. Hard explaining alzheimer's, autism, etc etc, but never mind.
What a complete and utter load of crap. But I'm not allowed to say that because I'm 'intellectually arrogant'.
Why might forcing catholicism on those too young to properly appraise it be akin to 'child abuse'? Well, what are catholics teaching their kids.
-God loves you. He made you out of love. But there is a list of things that you should never do or you will go to a pit of fire for ever unless you say you are sorry.
-God made all your friends, but only the catholic ones like the ones you go to school with (and the 'invincibly ignorant') will go to be with Him forever in heaven. The muslims, protestants, jews, aborted foetuses, etc, will all go to the fiery pit.
-You must talk to god frequently in order to find out what you should do and so that things will go well for you. IE God can withhold what is best for you unless you ask
I do think it's unhelpful to call it abuse. In my opinion it is the passing on of deeply ingrained cultural lies. The individual is not harmed as much as society. My parents are both Christian, and are wonderful, intelligent people. Being sent to Sunday school, and saying prayers before bed is anything but abuse. They were being loving parents, even if I would definitely not do the same for my kids.
My atheism is not willy waving either, and whilst I freely admit that I DO consider atheism to be the intelligent and self evidentally true belief system, and I AM condescending towards believers, that in no way means that I consider myself to be their intellectual superior in all walks of life.
My atheism is not willy waving either, and whilst I freely admit that I DO consider atheism to be the intelligent and self evidentally true belief system, and I AM condescending towards believers, that in no way means that I consider myself to be their intellectual superior in all walks of life.
f8ckn hell, another godbothering troll
What cetti, WHAT? Are you thick?
"""God is the being who created the universe/Universe and oversees its existence. """
COMMONLY ACCEPTED DEFINITION. If I use the word 'God' I have to ascribe some kind of meaning to it.
""""xcept that he don't exist. """"
I do not accept that such a being exists. I cannot put it any clearer. I could replace 'God' with 'Unicorn', has definition, but not existence.
Unless your problem is with 'universe/Universe', in which case: go read a ********* book.
Jesus Christ!
What cetti, WHAT? Are you thick?
"""God is the being who created the universe/Universe and oversees its existence. """
COMMONLY ACCEPTED DEFINITION. If I use the word 'God' I have to ascribe some kind of meaning to it.
""""xcept that he don't exist. """"
I do not accept that such a being exists. I cannot put it any clearer. I could replace 'God' with 'Unicorn', has definition, but not existence.
Unless your problem is with 'universe/Universe', in which case: go read a ********* book.
Jesus Christ!
Had you had been on the alcopops before you wrote that last message?
Christianity really is a mass of contradictions and unhinged zeal. But clearly that's not confined to Christianity:
"I'll be frank, I don't really like discussing things with you. You begin by twisting objective debate into a kind of personal attack, for which there is no need."
meredith101, Thursday, 12.49.
"f8ckn hell, another godbothering troll
What cetti, WHAT? Are you thick?"
meredith101, Friday, 0.55.
Christianity really is a mass of contradictions and unhinged zeal. But clearly that's not confined to Christianity:
"I'll be frank, I don't really like discussing things with you. You begin by twisting objective debate into a kind of personal attack, for which there is no need."
meredith101, Thursday, 12.49.
"f8ckn hell, another godbothering troll
What cetti, WHAT? Are you thick?"
meredith101, Friday, 0.55.
Found this link in my travels, some interesting reading:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/richard-dawkins/ why-there-almost-certainl_b_32164.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/richard-dawkins/ why-there-almost-certainl_b_32164.html
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