Is It Just Me?

[mrs_overall]

While the news this week was full of the story about the Hillsborough disaster, was it just me that thought about the victims of the Heysel stadium disaster? 39 Juventus fans died and 600 were injured - all caused by Liverpool fans.
If there are any Liverpudlians reading this, you will probably hate me for saying this, but it seems Liverpudlians are always the victims and never to blame.

[mrs_overall]

Talbot, YOU are talking out of your rear end - I support a team and I can explain the offside rule to you if you like, to prove my knowledge of football......and I once went to Liverpool!

Right, I have to go now, but I will be back later to reply to comments

[tamborine]

How can mobs of ticketless gate crashers not be blamed? They obviously overwhelmed the turnstyles & are alive today after causing the crushing deaths.

Too yellow to put their hands up, methinks.

[ummmm]

I believe it was established that ticketless fans were not to blame.

[murraymints]

it was the opening of a large gate that allowed the masses and forward surge of fans to blame..gate not opened..would not have happened..bottom line...

[anneasquith]

Oh my. @ tambo.

[ivor4781]

if a lot of the late arrivals had left the local pubs earlier and not at kick off time it might not have happened at all

[baza]

Bad crowd control both inside and outside of the ground, police and ground officials to blame.
Late arrival of fans may have caused the build up outside.
Not delaying the start to allow entry, organisers to blame.
Changes to police notes etc officers to blame.
Blaming the poor supporters who perished, well out of order, that's my take on it.

[viv41]

Quite frankly I'm sick of hearing about it, there are plenty of tragedies in the world ALWAYS, but it always comes back to this. I'm with Mrs O and it doesn't bother me what any of you think about this.

[gness]

Anyone who reads the full report can see that if every fan turned up stone cold sober this disaster would still have happened....and could have happened at previous matches.
Turnstile counters were ignored.......pen capacity was hugely overestimated and previous warnings that people were being crushed in these pens not listened to.
Pen3 had a safety certificate to hold 678 fans.....1,430 Liverpool fans were herded into this pen.
Read the crass and ignorant response from a senior police officer to the father trying to get help for his two daughters who later died.
Read the comments from the driver of the first of only three ambulances on the pitch.....how his efforts to save people were thwarted.
Oxygen cylinders were empty....the police didn't bring the bolt cutters that could have freed the trapped til the pitch was cleared of the injured.

When The Sun "newspaper" blamed the Liverpool fans one of the chaps who has been at the forefront of getting justice asked for calm.....Let's wait for the outcome and if we are to blame we will bear that blame....is the gist of what he said.

If we want an example of sticking together to cover our backs and lie our way out of any responsibility we only have to look at the police.....led by match commander David Duckenfield.....who could have closed the tunnel... but didn't because, as he says now...he froze because of the pressure he was under due to working under a deficient set of police orders.
Had the tunnel at Gate C been closed, as it had been at previous matches, fans would have been diverted to emptier pens.

The ones in charge of stadium and crowd safety are to blame for the deaths and I'm quite proud of my three Liverpudlian friends who were there and did try to help......x

[ChillDoubt]

Careful Mrs O! Everyone knows that when you kick one Scouser, they all scream......

[Ric.ror]

I think about them a lot especially as it's the anniversary on my birthday
Now that really does need truth and especially justice

[gness]

p.s.......My above post isn't down to my being a midget either!.....☺

[Prudie]

I'm not sure what this thread is trying to say but one football disaster doesn't wipe out the other. Some Liverpool fans were charged and went to prison because of Heysel (although even that can't be laid 100% at Liverpool's door, both teams had expressed their concerns before the match that the stadium wasn't suitable). Because they were to blame at Heysel doesn't mean they don't deserve justice where it's due nor are they to blame for everything thereafter.

[sunny-dave]

I'm coming at this from a similar (but not identical) point of view to the one gness posted earlier.

If all the fans had ...

1. Arrived in good time

2. Had correct, valid tickets

3. Gone to their allocated area

4. Been stone cold sober

... then it is possible (or even probable) that the disaster would not have occurred.

But ... in the fetid, violence-ridden swamp that was football crowds in the 1980s the chances of all the above happening was so vanishingly small as to be insignificant.

So - they needed :

5. A sound marshalling/policing plan with an adequate number of experienced police personnel controlled by experienced officers.

This was manifestly not the case - and a prompt, truthful report/enquiry could easily have established that (whilst also exposing any possible culpability from individual fans or groups of fans).

Why didn't this happen?

I simply refer back to a comment by Mrs O on page 1 of this thread - which she made about "Liverpool as a city", but I have amended it slightly :

"The British Police stick together when mourning their own, which is commendable, but they also stick together when denying responsibility for their wrongs, which I find abhorrent."

The lies, deceit and criminality of the Police in the aftermath of Hillsborough made any attempts to find the true causes of the disaster virtually impossible, and (ironically) have now resulted in all the blame and opprobrium being heaped on the Police themselves - when it is more than likely that they were actually far from being the only guilty ones on that day.

[ChillDoubt]

I'd concur with that(well-reasoned) synopsis SD.
As gness mentioned too, the difficulties at Hillsborough were well documented through previous near miss incidents, which the FA and SWFC chose to ignore.

[Svejk]

Yes, SD. Some of us have tried making similar points but have been castigated for them.

[Peter Pedant]

// The lies, deceit and criminality of the Police in the aftermath of Hillsborough made any attempts to find the true causes of the disaster virtually impossible, and (ironically) have now resulted in all the blame and opprobrium being heaped on the Police themselves // SD

// es, SD. Some of us have tried making similar points but have been castigated for them.// shweik

I just dont recollect you making the points SD was making schweik ....

[Svejk]

If your reading is on a par with your writing, you probably missed it.

[THECORBYLOON]

Regarding Liverpool never having a minute's silence for Juventus fans, http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1282111/Liverpool-remember-Heysel-Disaster-minute-silence.html

[jno]

no facts, thank you, TCL.