finite or infinite universe?
Is the universe finite or infinite.
Not been scientifically minded myself I would appriciate some imput from those on here who are my superiors in this subject and are more able to answer scientific questions.
I have put this question in R&S as subjects relating to my question (eternity, creation, etc) are often discussed here and I know that many here (Waldo etc) have a scientific education that far exceeds my own limited knowledge.
Also the theist position "God did it" just doesnt do it for me.
If the universe is infinite, can anyone honestly get their head around the concept of an endless universe?
And if its finite can you get get your head around the concept that there may be an end to the universe along with the question "whats after (or outside off) the universe?
Any imput appriciated...
wizard66 Fri 05/12/08 00:07
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Hi Wiz, Take a look at this:
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/arti cle2001486.ece
It's 150 TRILLION miles wide and 7,500 light years from earth. Just one example of what's out there, but how can anyone truly get their head around even this? (Incidentally, I wonder what it looks like now? We'll have to wait a very long time for the answer to that!!).
I think the universe is magniicently infinite.
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(Sorry about the typo - ^^^ magnificently).
Another thought. If the universe, as we know it, is finite and there is something else outside it - even if that 'something' is 'nothing' - then that 'nothing' must also be part of the universe - and therefore the universe must indeed be infinite - if you get my drift!
Err.... Think it's time for a shower!
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Just a thought;
Is nothing something?
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Luna, it depends. When I ask the missus what’s up and she says ‘nothing’, invariably there is ‘something’.
Universe is defined as everything that exists ever, so by that it would seem both finite and infinite. Finite because we can look and see ‘it’, but infinite because it is always getting bigger. But then that really depends on whether the universe is the observable universe – everything within our own space/time relationship and that interacts with us – or what is beyond.
The universe is probably infinite in volume. It is the observable universe that we can see and size up that makes s wonder if that is ‘it’ or whether there is more … to infinity and beyond (couldn’t resist). At the moment this is estimated at about 93bn light years across (46 each direction!) which is I think about 5.5 quadrillion miles (in English number speak, 10x 12). But even those calcs are based on ‘now’ and not when the light was emitted.
Fascinating question Wiz, but I would say it is most likely to be infinite, if only by the fact it is expanding to absorb more…nothingness. Until we expand into that nothingness, or maybe can’t see it, then it doesn’t exist.
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Whether or not the Universe is finite or infinite depends on the amount of mass in it.
If there is sufficient mass it will bend around and close.
Imagine the old "Asteroids" game where if you vanish off one part of the screen you apear on the other only in 3D.
If you imagine the 2D game that's a bit like the surface of a 3D sphere.
In 3D it's like the surface of a 4D torus or Doughnut ( think about it ).
The idea of what's outside the Universe doesn't really make sense - our English language doesn't deal with such concepts well. Concepts of behind in front inside outside all evolve within a 3D world when we start thinking about other dimensions words like outside start to lose their meaning.
Anyway I think that despite dark matter, the balance of opinion these days is strongly towards an open (ie infinite) Universe.
However we can't know for sure because we now know the rate that the Universe is expanding is increasing. That and the inflationary stage means that there is an "event horizon" ie a point beyond which if something had travelled at the speed of light since the begining of the Universe it cound not reach us. Things are slipping over that all the time.
In one sense we are living in a black hole.
If you're interested in this you need to get to grips with multiple dimensions.
A good place to start is Flatland - written over a century ago about a 2D universe it gives insight on how extra dimensions work.
http://www.calormen.com/Flatland/
Abbot's book is available off the link above
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Jake, just read the first 4 sections on-line. It looks fascinating; I might try and print it out or ask Santa for a copy.
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It is good.
The thing about additional dimensions is that your brain can't visualise them but you can get a grip on them with maths.
Take two points (x,y) and (x',y')
Whats the distance between them?
√( (x'-x)² + (y'-y)²)
Pythagorus yes? square root of the sum of the square of the two sides
So in 3D space you have a point defined by it's position (x,y,z) and another point (x',y',z')
distance?
√( (x'-x)² + (y'-y)²+(z'-z)²)
Same thing with (a,b,c,d) and (a',b',c',d') in 4
whats the distance between those?
If you said √( (a'-a)² + (b'-b)²+(c'-c)²+(d'-d)²)
You just solved your first problem in 4 dimensional space
You Rock!
You can use similar ideas to understand how multiple dimensions work without ever having to visualise them.
Does that mean they're real? It depends what you mean by that. We certainly know that gravity warps space and can prove it - the maths gives us correct answers.
In the end that's what true tends to mean in Science - the ability to explain and predict behaviour
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A question about the extent of the Universe is posted in Religion and Spirituality, rather than Science.
I'm interested ... does that say something about our fundamental view of the Universe itself ?
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I think the fundamental (no pun intended) discovery about the universe (small U) so far is that it had a beginning. If it had a beginning it can not be infinite in the classic sense of the word. If it had a beginning, it must have and ending. The ending will not be, in sofar as curent understanding implies, an extinguishing of all contents with an explosion or some such, but rather a whimper, as the laws of physics apply to the rapidly expanding matter.
It must also have boundaries, although that word does not describe the classical definition of 'boundary' as appl;ied to the limits of the Universe (capital U). jake comes pretty close with his descritpion only in the sense of additional, undectecable (and probably unprovable) extra dimensions that occurred in the first millonth of a millionth of a trillionth of a second following the creation and soon to follow inflation. Many cosmologists now propose as many as seven (some postulate more) dimensions that did not fully develop (often described as unfolded)at the onset... in fact they have a term for that non-development; the relaxation principle. The argument among researchers seems to revolve around how mathmatical equations are applied, and that argument is pretty heated.
The end result is, however the universe as we know it today is flat in its configuration and had a beginning, hence non-infinite...
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I have to say that you lost me when you cleared your throat, fascinating link btw.
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Doc, green again?? Your AB universe is rather finite innit.
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So, in fact, the Universe is nothing more than ...
... "quite big"
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It is something I often hear women say Jayne.
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I know one guy who won Mr Universe title. He must be aware of what it is all about.
For me it is here for not to be here when the time would be right.
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Question Author
Blimey!
Just got round to reading my responses and now youve all given me a headache.
Thanks for all replies. Guess we just arnt equiped to really understand the nature of the universe.
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Personally, I have always been rather taken with the Futurama version of our universe - It is finite, can be reached on a day trip from the earth, and has a spaceship parking area, a waist high brick wall and a coin operated telescope through which you can observe, over the whiteness of the edge of the universe, your alternate selves waving back at you in the (one) other universe in their version of the multiple universe theory :)
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