Isis: The Origins Of Violence

[naomi24]

Did anyone see this on Channel 4 last night? I recorded it and will hopefully watch it sometime today, but this from the London Evening Standard and makes interesting reading.
http://www.standard.co.uk/lifestyle/london-life/interview-historian-tom-holland-on-isis-receiving-death-threats-and-why-there-is-a-civil-war-in-the-a3541236.html
Tom Holland finishes by saying , “Ever since Rushdie, people have a sense that if you say anything negative about Islam, angry Muslims will protest. But there’s a further anxiety that if you insult Muslims, you’re a racist. There’s a conflation. Both of those anxieties have a chilling effect on questioning a fundamental issue: to what extent is there an ideological dimension to what is being done in Islam’s name? It seems there is a considerable ideological dimension.”

Holland believes it is better that we discuss this openly. “People acknowledge it but are afraid to say it. That played a substantial part in the Dutch and French elections — a feeling of resentment that people aren’t allowed to express it. It’s better that we open the windows — for Muslims too. Because all the time, this is metastasising away. This is like refusing to go to the dentist when you have a toothache. Sooner or later, it will fall out and your jaw will go rotten.”

Needless to say perhaps, I think he’s absolutely right.

[Old_Geezer]

Isn't whether this is done in the name of Islam, or not, only something Muslims can debate and agree on ? Whilst others may wish there to be an agreement all others can do is fight those that commit atrocities and push back those who desire a nation state where such is allowed.

[Garaman]

//But there’s a further anxiety that if you insult Muslims, you’re a racist. //

The wording of that concerns me a bit. If it had said, ‘if you were to insult a Muslim’ I wouldn’t have a problem, but if you insult Muslims then you might well be classified as a racist. I mean if you were to hit someone you might not be a violent person, but if you hit people you probably are.

I agree it is a subject that needs discussing openly.

[naomi24]

Garaman, I’m not entirely sure that’s what he means. I think he’s probably referring to drawing cartoons of Mohammed and that sort of thing rather than insulting anyone on a personal level.

[Kathyan]

How can you be racist against a religion?

[naomi24]

Strictly speaking, you can’t, but since Islam embraces a culture that is 'foreign' to our own, I suppose in that respect those who insult Islam could be deemed racist. It’s a blurred line.

[naomi24]

Having watched about three quarters of this programme, I had to turn it off. 'Harrowing' doesn't cover it. I shall watch the rest, but another day.

[birdie1971]

Kathyan - “How can you be racist against a religion?”

You can't. It is a logical impossibility since all religions (as far as I am aware) are open to all creeds and colours.

It's a simple linguistic device to shut down debate. Once the label of “racist” has been levelled at an individual or organisation, the debate is over; the mere suggestion of racism precipitates a suspension in discourse.

[vetuste_ennemi]

The program helped a bit. But the ISIS stuff is a distraction. ISIS will go, but the ideology which lends itself so easily to bullying at best and atrocity at the worst is as old as Islam itself. Love's a score in tennis, but herpes is forever.

[birdie1971]

VE - “... the ideology which lends itself so easily to bullying...”

That would be Islam that you're talking about then.

I keep hearing this term “the ideology” on the TV and on radio when they're talking about Islam. They refuse to use the word 'Islam' and instead use the phrase 'the ideology' when discussing Islamic scripture and belief. It's truely bizzare. Like they're trying to distance Islam from Islam.

[Garaman]

Tom Holland says 'Driving a wedge between Muslims and non-Muslims through atrocities is part of Isis’s strategy.' The problem facing The Government is that it has to try and tackle Isis without helping them drive the wedge.

[birdie1971]

Garaman - “Tom Holland says 'Driving a wedge between Muslims and non-Muslims through atrocities is part of Isis’s strategy.'...”

A wedge already exists between muslims and non-muslims. It's an implacable and uncompromising wedge called Islam. The very idea that there is a peaceful version of the Koran and hence, Islam, and that there is a violent and intolerant interpretation of the same is simply nonsense. They are one and the same.

The Koran states quite clearly that it is the last revealed testimony between God and humanity; no more communications will be made. The texts are absolutely unequivocal in this regard. It also states that the Koran is immutable; it cannot be reinterpreted, changed, altered or otherwise amended. I says that the verses contained within were true when they were written and they will be true until the end of time itself. So when the Koran instructs muslims to, “... kill [the unbelievers] wherever you find them...” [2:191-193], it means it. It's not a metaphor. It's not allegory. It means precisely what it says it means: kill those who do not agree with you.

The notion of a tolerant Islamic belief is a fiction.

[birdie1971]

*I says* = It says.

[Garaman]

Birdie, you believe that if you want. Like Tom Holland I believe that Isis is trying to turn all Muslims against non-Muslims, and how Isis aims to do that is by first turning non-Muslims against all Muslims. I don’t want to help Isis do that.

The Koran was around before the terror attacks started btw.

[EDDIE51]

Not part of the answer, but the bodyguard who said ,'' you are in sniper range , if you hear a crack drop to the ground'' obviously did not know a rifle bullet travels faster than the speed of sound! You would be dead before you heard the shot.
The writer is 100% correct though .

[Old_Geezer]

The sniper may have been aiming for one of your buddies. Worth hitting the ground anyway.

[mibn2cweus]

//The Koran was around before the terror attacks started btw.//

Go figure . . .

[birdie1971]

Garaman - “... The Koran was around before the terror attacks started btw.”

So what you're saying is that Islamic scriptures and teachings preceded Islamic terrorism? OK. I agree. Now having established that, what does it demonstrate as far as you're concerned?

[vetuste_ennemi]

//...bodyguard who said ,'' you are in sniper range , if you hear a crack drop to the ground'' obviously did not know a rifle bullet travels faster than the speed of sound! You would be dead before you heard the shot.//

Reminds me of the delightful "..like the way you're thinking" joke. It starts with:

"Hymie, if there are ten birds sitting on a fence and one gets shot, how many are left?".
"None, Miss."

The punchline is:

"No, Miss, it's the one with the wedding ring. But I like the way you're thinking."

[birdie1971]

VE

Whooshh!
That's the noise of your last post going over my head.

I don't get it.

:-/

[douglas9401]

As a public service:


A teacher asks her class, "If there are 5 birds sitting on a fence and you shoot one of them, how many will be left?" She calls on little Johnny.

"None, they all fly away with the first gunshot."

The teacher replies, "The correct answer is 4, but I like your thinking."

Then little Johnny says,
"I have a question for YOU.There are three women sitting on a bench having ice cream. One is delicately licking the sides of the triple scoop of ice cream. The second is gobbling down the top and sucking the cone. The third is biting off the top of the ice cream. Which one is married?"

The teacher, blushing a great deal, replies,
"Well I suppose the one that's gobbled down the top and sucked the cone."

"The correct answer is the one with the wedding ring on...

.....but I like your thinking."