Feminine Submission and Patriarchal Bloody Properganda
Last weekend I went to a lovely wedding. Lots of lovely church friends, lovely weather, the drinks were flowing (orange juice for me), party bags for the children to play with, I was in a wonderful mood until.............
The father "gave" the bride away. Did she belong to him?
The bride (a strong, independent woman who has travelled independently and has a professional career) promised to "obey" her husband. Why? What does he know that she doesnt?
The reading from Eph 5 managed to leave out the crucial "submit to one another" before getting into the wifely submission bit.
The sermon was not only totally "wives submit, you poor dears, cos your husband is like Christ and knows better" followed by what was pretty much an altar call "make the happy couple's day, become a Christian, that'll make them SO much happier on their wedding day"
I want to scream. At the Patriarchal propaganda of male ownership of the feminine. At the misreading of scripture, taking it out of context. At the assumption (though it was denied, it was inefectual) of male dominance in society and marriage. At the idea that somehow women are unfulfilled until marriage.
Just had to get this off my chest.
Mani Hussain Mon 28/07/08 19:12
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this is pretty much a ritual rather than a living commitment these days, when most couples are living together already. The handing over from father to husband is a symbol of leaving the shelter of your born family for one of your own making; actual handcuffs aren't involved. Nonetheless, many couples omit these more creaky bits of the service - I did and that was 30 years ago. It's surprising that anyone is still sticking with them but maybe they are traditionalists, or maybe she really thinks she will always obey him. I wouldn't put any money on this happening, though.
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Marriage is a wonderful institution - but who wants to live in an institution !?
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Question Author
When I get married I plan to have a service of Christian gender equality. None of this giving away, submit yourself nonesense. I want my wife to feel equal, the only submitting she would be doing would be into my love.
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The bride and her father, often consider the giving away/leaving the parental umbrella an honour. The choice of sermon is often at the behest of the bride and groom.
We all find parts of other peopes wedding odd, or crass or just plain sickly in parts, but its their day and they should enjoy it the way they want to without intereference and upset from opinionated guests.
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mani - i thought you said in the relationship section that you had been single for years. why are you planning your wedding if you are single?
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Question Author
Ghetto - Your correct I have been single for a long time. My dream is to get married to a woman who I could love and cherish in an equal relationship for the rest of my life.
I doubt it will ever happen. I'm not exactly a ladies man and the few women who seem to like me are usually the one's I wouldn't consider myself. I'm a member of a Christian dating site and all of the women who have liked my profile seem to have things wrong with them (overweight, mental health etc) I will persevere though and in the meantime why shouldn't I dream about my wedding.
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Something wrong with them???? Overweight?????? Perhaps you'd care to rephrase that Mani?????
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Question Author
Sorry Bath. I just meant to say that I'm only attracted to thin women. An "overweight lady" recently "tricked" me into going on a date with her and I found it an upsetting experience.
Anyway, I didn't want to make this question about me. What do you think about my main point?
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I consider myself a strong minded, independent, successful woman. When I got married (not sure whether it was 12 years ago today or 11 years yesterday - get dates muddled), I didn't promise to obey - there was no way i was going to obey anyone. I had a big church wedding and the vows I made at the time, I believed and I meant. My father giving me away was symbolic rather than an act of female submission and it meant a great deal to both me and my father. I never submitted to my husband's will - in fact the balance in our relationship was tipped for the worse as my career soared and his disappeared down the toilet. As it is, I am now divorced, since despite the vows I made, I couldn't live with a man who tried to control me every minute of the day and turn me into the person he wanted rather than the person I really am.
The reading I had was St Pauls letter to the Corinthians which talks about love rather than submission and our vicar was a pretty cool guy who talked about marriage as a partnership rather than an act of female submission.
I believe I got everything right - apart perhaps from the groom.
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i know what you mean mani id be embarassed to be seen out with a fat ho off the internet to.
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Question Author
Very interesting Barmaid, thanks for your contribution.
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Mani, Octavius is right. The ceremony has to be the choice of the people involved. I've been to weddings where I've wondered what all the nonsense is about too - and knowing full well that this bully of a women in white is under no circumstances ever going obey anyone. Similarly, I went to a baptism recently - a young baby - and I found the claptrap of that service quite appalling - but that's what the parents chose, and it's not my business. Just forget it..
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When (if) I get married, I want my Dad to give me away.
And I want me fiance to have asked my Dad for permission to marry me, before he asks me.
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The symbolism still exists, diluted but still a reminder of the gender imbalances that exist.
Within a society that has institutional hierarchies and inequalities, marriage is an opportunity to contract into a relationship of love, support and nurture where obedience is optional or to enter into a contract which perpetuates all that is worst about gender inequalities. Don't worry about the sermon or the vows to much, just enjoy celebrating their union.
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I suppose traditionally she'd be "giving away" her name.
You don't dig on fat chicks, nothing wrong in that, the heart wants what it wants.
But you want a woman who is'nt mental?
You could struggle there old boy, all women are nuts it's a scientific fact!
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Don't worry about it Mani. The humiliation of having to say all that nonsense about honouring and obeying is more than compensated for by the fact that she knows she'll get the house, car, and half his income after the divorce.
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Have u only just twigged that religion is man made for control of women.
Women were/are born submissive to their fathers and it follows to their husbands.
But less religious folk who scorn such control by various faiths are seen as 'decadent'.
You have to be strong to be a 'free thinker' as you have less 'communal support'!
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So why bother with any of it at all? Save yourself some time- just find a fat ugly woman you hate, and give her a house.
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