Apostrophe

[anotheoldgit]

Which of the two is correct?

That is James's book

Or

That is James' book.

[factor-fiction]

Many texts say that for surnames the correct version is James' but I have never understood the logic of that. I always write James's as that is how it is pronounced. Both formats exist- eg St Thomas' , St Thomas's.

[boxtops]

Yes, I agree with factor, this used to be one they'd trick us with at school - St James's Palace got us every time!

[Quizmonster]

In the case of James, there is no real problem with adding an apostrophe 's' to give James's. However, with other names, it is often better just to add an apostrophe. For example, Jesus's sounds clumsy because there are just too many letters 's'! In such cases, use the apostrophe but there is no reason to add the final 's'.

[factor-fiction]

Hiquizmonster- I know that the dropping of an s is always done for historical names such as Jesus, Achilles, Pythagoras (though i don't understand the logic), and also sometimes for James, Jones, Thomas but I don't really understand the argument that we drop the s on the possessive for a name because it looks clumsy.
What about when we talk about the car of the boss- that should be " the boss's car" but I have seen someone write "the boss' car", either out of ignorance or maybe because they felt it would look clumsy to include the s. What's your view on dropping the s in this case?

[Quizmonster]

I certainly wouldn't drop the final 's' in boss's. Although there are three consecutive LETTERS 's', there are only two of them which are SOUNDED. On the other hand, some people say 'Keats' poems' whilst others say 'Keats's poems'.

[beso]

It isn't about clumsiness but plurality.

The bird's wings means the wings of one bird.
The birds' wings means the wings of multiple birds.

Those who drop the "s" for other reasons are comitting a common misuse of the language that some have come to accept though the frequency of the error.

[beso]

Forgot one. The apostrophe is dropped in the case of addresses and place names.
I believe this was adopted for machine mail sorting since apostrophes made the task more difficult. All punctuation was dropped.

So use St Johns Wood rather than St. John's Wood

[Quizmonster]

If you actually look at the question, Beso, you'll see that it refers to the name, James. There is no element of plurality whatsoever involved in that. The simple truth is, as I've already explained, that Jesus's IS clumsy by virtue of the three sounded letters 's' so close together. That's why people often refer to "Jesus' miracles". The same would apply, when referring to Shakespeare's Julius Caesar, if we said "Cassius' treachery" rather than "Cassius's treachery". Simples!

[SurreyGuy]

I asked a similar questiona while back and my helpful fellow ABers sent me links/gave me advice that (basically) said "either one was acceptable".

[Quizmonster]

Quite so, SurreyGuy...to some extent. Here's what the two 'bibles' of usage have to say on the matter...
a) Fowler's Modern English Usage suggests that, for personal names ending in 's', (quote) "In all monosyllables use 's for the possessive." That gives James's whatever. It goes on re longer names, "It is customary to omit the s when the last syllable of the name is pronounced iz as in Bridges, Moses, Jesus." That gives Jesus' whatever.
b) Gowers' Complete Plain Words says re monosyllables that the addition of the 's is (quote) "certainly the commonest practice but with longer names many people let an apostrophe do the job alone."
In other words, the two are in virtually complete agreement. That is, it is not actually WRONG to write "James' book", just uncommon. Similarly, some people write "Dickens' novels..." whilst others write, "Dickens's novels..."
Ye pays yer money and ye takes yer choice, as they say! Personally, with a single-syllable name such as James, I would never dream of writing "James' book" and nor would MOST other English speakers.

[VeroniK]

As James is not a name of a famous person u need to add an apostrophe with S. So u have to write James's.

[Quizmonster]

You need to remember, VeroniK, that James may be a surname as well as a first name and many people with that surname ARE famous! The writers Henry James and P D James immediately occur to me. Thus, it is not the case that you (quote) "have to" write James's. If you read my earlier answer immediately above your own, you will see that experts say that it IS acceptable - though uncommon - to write James' without an additional s. I wouldn't, as I've already said, but neither you nor I can TELL other people that they have to copy us!

[Old_Geezer]

Either is acceptable, alhtough I prefer to leave off the final s since what's the point of having a rule saying do so, if it isn't used.

The apostrophe is vital to clarify meaning, but some of the daft rules around it ought never have got past the grammar censors. Rules need to be simple and consistent and no illogical exceptions "justified" by poor excuses. The apostrophe is certainly an area where they should revisit & revise.

[mike11111]

The apostrophe has only one meaning - to denote the presence of one or more letters not written because they are not pronounced. In the case of possession it denotes the missing 'e', which would have been written and pronounced in old English.

[VeroniK]

Oh, sorry DEAR Quizmonster! U could have done it in a bit milder way.

[Backdrifter]

@Quizmonster: " However, with other names, it is often better just to add an apostrophe. For example, Jesus's sounds clumsy because there are just too many letters 's'! In such cases, use the apostrophe but there is no reason to add the final 's'. "

Are we talking about written or spoken here? You said the three letters s SOUNDS clumsy - which it is a bit - but do you mean that in speech you'd SAY "Jesus miracles"?

If the book belongs to the James family, we'd say "the Jameses' book" - is that right?

[Quizmonster]

Mike...
Despite what is often claimed, the apostrophe IS used to from plurals in one specific situation, so it does not have "only one meaning". What situation? The one that occurs in the plurals of individual letters. "Mind your p's and q's"..."Dot your i's and cross your t's"..."There are four i's in Mississippi" are typical examples.
If a teacher wrote on a pupil's work, "I don't like the way you write your as", the student might think she meant his word ‘as' rather than his several letters ‘a'.

Backdrifter...
Surely there ARE no apostrophes in speech. If I wanted to talk about the miracles of Jesus, I would say "Jesus' miracles"...ie the apostrophe is there in my head and that of my listener, but clearly it is not in any way spoken. And, yes, Jameses' is the possessive form for a family surnamed James.

VeroniK...
I'm not at all sure what you are getting at by "milder". I wasn't shouting at you or criticising you vehemently; I was merely trying to point out a fact that you appeared to have overlooked. Simples!