An apology

[New Judge]

In this earlier question:

http://www.theanswerb.../Question1070105.html

I may have given the impression that I believed it would be quite a few weeks before The Great “Deal” That Saved the World (or more precisely the Euro) which was announced just last week would take a few weeks to unravel and that it would be the donor nations that would cause its downfall. To save you trawling through the question, here’s a bit of what I said:

“This latest “deal” is simply more sticking plaster. We heard all this in May, we heard it again in July and, almost certainly, we will hear it again some time in the first quarter of the New Year (if not sooner) when the details of the latest deal prove inadequate or unacceptable. All any of these deals is doing is shifting vast sums of capital from the nations that have to the nations that have not and sooner or later the electorates of the donor nations will find a way to call a halt to the lunacy.”

How wrong I was! Not only has the deal not lasted a week:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/...world-europe-15538809

but it is the principle recipient nation that is cutting up rough. Just how much longer must this lunacy continue before the Euro is put out of its (and our) misery?

[SpikeyBush]

How long does Demis Roussos think it will take for Greece to pay back their debts?
For ever and ever and ever and ever and ever..........

[New Judge]

Even that's not long enough, Spikey!. Ha ha haaaaaaaaaaaa!

[rojash]

Apparently NJ, Papandreou read your arguments in favour of a referendum on here, and you managed to convince him that it's the only way to true democracy.

[jno]

don't worry, rojash, Greek can be left to sink into the Aegean without the slightest effect on Britain.

[rojash]

You think so jno?
Perhaps you'd better check the news: "US and European markets have fallen following Monday's announcement of a Greek referendum on the latest aid package to solve its debt crisis."

"London's FTSE 100 had ended trading down 2.2%, while the Frankfurt Dax fell 5% and the Paris Cac 40 some 5.4%"

"Other European banks also fared badly for the second day, with Germany's Commerzbank and Deutsche Bank and the UK's Barclays and Royal Bank of Scotland all 8% to 10% lower"

[jno]

my tongue may have been slightly in my cheek there. There's quite a bit of steling invested in Greece.

[Gromit]

And the Eurozone descending into chaos is what we want, right?

[Brenden]

Do you think Greece will be offered a better deal?

[jake-the-peg]

Your predictions of the demise of the Euro are faintly reminiscent of a certain American Preacher's prediction of the end of the World.

I think October had been widely touted - then no sorry got the date wrong it will be a bit later before the rapture restores the "common sense" of lots of little nation states bickering in Europe.

Both you and the Christians are simply predicting what they want to happen - alas as most England sports fans know just predicting victory doesn't make it happen.


Frankly you're not even in the Euro - your behavior is like coming up to someone trying to change the wheel on his car and saying "Ooh I wouldn't use the jack like that! I told you there was a funny noise"

[bibblebub]

Can the other countries in the Eurozone throw Greece out of the Euro or is it only Greece that can make the decision to go back to their own currency?

[factor-fiction]

If a country with as much debt as Greece defaults on its debt it will have major repercussions whether the Euro is in place or not. However, you may have a point if you are saying that without the existence of the Euro Greece may not have been able to take out such loans.

Yes, Greece seems to be burying its head in the sand and the rest of Europe is rightly getting fed up of their refusal to accept the generous help on offer and take the necessary action internally. And yes, the proposed bail out does seem to be a reward for profligacy and so I feel uneasy about it. It is tempting to tell them to 'get lost' and let them sort out the problem themselves.....but the governments, economists and markets know that if Greece defaults completely it will drag down a lot of banks and a lot of economies and there will be a much deeper recession.

If it does settle down (e.g. if a new government takes over in Greece with a mandate to cooperate with Europe) then I'm sure that the concept of the Euro will be reviewed. However I doubt it will ever be scrapped- but the terms of entry will have to be tightened up significantly as it seems Greece got in on false pretences.

[jake-the-peg]

I think it can be thrown out

It would be pretty disasterous for Greece there would be very little confidence in a new dracma a very real risk of hyper-inflation etc.

On the plus side it might make Belusconi buck his ideas up - no sorry that's just silly!

The Greek PM is playing a rather dangerous game of chicken with his political opponents - I can't blame him, he was set to take the blame for the austerity package.

Interestingly 60% of Greeks are against the bail out but 70% want to stay in the Euro.

They're going to have to realise that these are linked and make a decision

[anotheoldgit]

What happens to a country and it's inhabitants, when a country goes bankrupt?

Can it be taken over by another country?

If so would this then be classed as a 'financial invasion', rather than a 'military' one?

[jno]

aog, I believe the Chinese have bought up huge amounts of US debt. I've sometimes wondered what's the worst that might happen there.

[rojash]

"What happens to a country and it's inhabitants, when a country goes bankrupt? "
Depends on the country. In the case of Argentina it eventually came up smelling of roses and with a massively increased welfare system, and had to put in place measures to prevent its currency from becoming over-valued.

http://tinyurl.com/nx38n8

[New Judge]

Thanks for the contributions everybody.

Really for Greece their choice is financial death by a swift knife in the heart (a formal default and exit from the Euro) or death by a thousand cuts (continued bail outs accompanied by severe austerity for as far ahead as anybody can foresee). There is no doubt that they will not remain in the Eurozone in the long term. They are trapped in a currency that they cannot afford to use. Papandreou has decided that the electorate should make this choice – probably the most important the Greeks will make in generations. Of course, being a politician he has a hidden agenda and there are doubts that the referendum will take place as it is likely that the government will fall first.

As far as the mood of the Greeks goes, of course they want to remain in the Euro – who would not want continued bail outs to sustain their lavish lifestyle. And of course they don’t want the bail out package as that would see the end to their 80% pensions at 57.


The doom mongers who prophesy a life of penury for any nation which dares to try to untangle itself from the insidious web that is the EU and the Euro should look around the world. Greece would undountedly suffer if it defaults. But a return to the Drachma is a far more preferable fate that a lifetime in pawn to Germany. The new Drachma would hit the deck, no doubt. But that is what currencies are for. Rojash beat me to it by mentioning Argentina. It defaulted in 2001 following a prolonged effort to link its peso to the US Dollar. It currency became over-valued and it went skint but sonn after swiftly disconnected the peso from the dollar. It still cannot borrow on the international money markets but is currently enjoying economic growth of around 8%.

There is life outside the EU and the Euro as many nations can attest. Whatever Greece decides it should ignore the Eurocrats and instead ponder on such episodes from history. They may care to bear in mind that the Lisbon Treaty dictates that the EU must set up trading agreements with any nation that leaves the Union, so they will not suffer the isiolation that many forecast.

This continued nonsense is having profound effects across the globe, not least in the UK. It is about time the fundamental problems of the Euro were addressed. Continually throwing other people’s cash at a bankrupt nation simply will not do.

[bazwillrun]

No matter what happens to Greece ( I hope they get out of the EU and dump the Euro) the powers that be will not let this derail the masterplan of a superstate governed from brussells.

The last thing they want is for the pound to rise against the Euro, but unfortunately it looks like the £ is not far from parity.

Look at the history of all past european empires, it nearly always ends in tears, when not if, but these crazy megalomaniacs never learn their lesson.

Just like when were we a province of rome, to all intents and purposes we will be bled dry.

[Brenden]

and wars baz .

[emmie]

wasn't that part of the thinking behind the EEC, not just trade, but to stop European nations going to war. The thing i found disturbing, is reading, though no idea if true, that the army chiefs have been sacked, are they frightened there will be a military coup?