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Can Islam Be Reformed?
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Somali-born ex-Muslim writer and politician, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, who worked with murdered film director Theo van Gogh, said in an interview with Britain's Channel 4 News that Islam must be reformed to save it from extremists. //Schools and mosques must stop "taking young children, boys and girls, and filling their heads, using the Quran and the example of the Prophet Mohammed, filling their heads with hatred for this life, filling their heads with the idea of jihad, with the idea of Sharia."//
That will mean rejection of sections of the Koran and of the Prophet Mohammed’s perceived infallibility – but both are unthinkable to Muslims. What hope?
That will mean rejection of sections of the Koran and of the Prophet Mohammed’s perceived infallibility – but both are unthinkable to Muslims. What hope?
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In my inexpert opinion, since there are presenly extremists who take all recorded teaching literally and with the worst interpretation, and more reasonable moderates who apply sense to ancient teachings, a schism has already occurred in practice, and reformation achieved. The issue is whether the violent part will ever behave in a decent manner; and this is unlikely as parents (or others) corrupt the minds of the next generation.
You probably have to judge it by the model of christianity whose followers were equally barbaric 500+ years ago in the name of their religion. It's evolved and continues to evolve into something relatively non-violent despite all the violence and intolerance being promoted in the bible as a whole.
The words in the book can't change of course. Whole sections just get convieniently ignored, and others reinterpreted by the relevant scholars so maintain some relevance to modern civilisation.
Islam will eventually evolve in the same way, but the bad news is it's a good few hundred years behind christianity and will need to be dragged kicking and screaming out of its medieval mindset.
The words in the book can't change of course. Whole sections just get convieniently ignored, and others reinterpreted by the relevant scholars so maintain some relevance to modern civilisation.
Islam will eventually evolve in the same way, but the bad news is it's a good few hundred years behind christianity and will need to be dragged kicking and screaming out of its medieval mindset.
'Can their book be interpreted differently?' would be more apt.
And of course it could as per the example Ludwig gives with the Christians.
Wahabbism, and especially how the Saudi's have exported it since the end of WW 2 when the House of Saud became the inheritors of untold billions of petrodollars (under the guidance and watch of the Americans) is a fact many on here seem incapable of comprehending , but until that inconvenient fact is DEALT with the Daesh/al-Quaeda/Islam associated terrorismwill NEVER cease.
"Yet although IS is certainly an Islamic movement, it is neither typical nor mired in the distant past, because its roots are in Wahhabism, a form of Islam practised in Saudi Arabia that developed only in the 18th century."
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"Exact numbers are not known, but it is thought that more than $100 billion have been spent on exporting fanatical Wahhabism to various much poorer Muslim nations worldwide over the past three decades. It might well be twice that number. By comparison, the Soviets spent about $7 billion spreading communism worldwide in the 70 years from 1921 and 1991."
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And of course it could as per the example Ludwig gives with the Christians.
Wahabbism, and especially how the Saudi's have exported it since the end of WW 2 when the House of Saud became the inheritors of untold billions of petrodollars (under the guidance and watch of the Americans) is a fact many on here seem incapable of comprehending , but until that inconvenient fact is DEALT with the Daesh/al-Quaeda/Islam associated terrorismwill NEVER cease.
"Yet although IS is certainly an Islamic movement, it is neither typical nor mired in the distant past, because its roots are in Wahhabism, a form of Islam practised in Saudi Arabia that developed only in the 18th century."
http://
"Exact numbers are not known, but it is thought that more than $100 billion have been spent on exporting fanatical Wahhabism to various much poorer Muslim nations worldwide over the past three decades. It might well be twice that number. By comparison, the Soviets spent about $7 billion spreading communism worldwide in the 70 years from 1921 and 1991."
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Ludwig is correct. As within Christianity, a reformation is highly likely to take place and arguably is already under way as is evident through large numbers of Muslims taking a pragmatic approach to the letter of the book. Again as in the Christian sphere, fundamentalist are always likely to exist and they will manifest their particular versions in the Islamic equivalents of Christian cults, some in remote places until they fizzle out (as with Guyana where they drank from a vat of poison) or in eccentric groups among and in close contact with the rest of society (Amish, JW, Scientology, Latter Day Saints, etc.). Each will take their own position on "the Word" and insist their view is correct and everybody else's is wrong. To this extent there is no difference among the various religions. It will take the Muslim world some time to go through the process and, given modern communications, travel, etc., the rest of the world has become and will remain involved for some time to come. It is my belief that, whereas the process took Christianity some centuries to complete, Islam will from now reach a similar "steady state" in about the sort of time it took Communism to go through its lifespan from the Marx-Engels ideas to date (less than one and a half centuries).
Islam has already been reformed. ISIS was created and is being helped by that reformed Islam by Americans and most of the West.
However I will ask this writer and you a couple of questions.
Why all of a sudden West needs a reformed Islam when they have started seeing by product of what they cultivated to destroy a few other countries? Why Islam did not need reformation when Americans were recruiting people from all over the world in the name of Jihad, were giving them weapons, training and were pushing them into Afghanistan to fight against Russia?
Why when those same people, with same weapons and same training are fighting against America then they have become terrorists?
Do you have any answer?
Still there is time that America and a few other countries should stop their dreams of controlling the world at any cost. Otherwise unfortunately when you set fire to someone else’s house then sooner or later flames will engulf your own house. And that’s a fact.
However I will ask this writer and you a couple of questions.
Why all of a sudden West needs a reformed Islam when they have started seeing by product of what they cultivated to destroy a few other countries? Why Islam did not need reformation when Americans were recruiting people from all over the world in the name of Jihad, were giving them weapons, training and were pushing them into Afghanistan to fight against Russia?
Why when those same people, with same weapons and same training are fighting against America then they have become terrorists?
Do you have any answer?
Still there is time that America and a few other countries should stop their dreams of controlling the world at any cost. Otherwise unfortunately when you set fire to someone else’s house then sooner or later flames will engulf your own house. And that’s a fact.
I think one may be mixing reasons for conflict as if they were the same. They are only the same with respect to needing to negate whatever is seen as the biggest threat at the time. But this thread is specifically about the possibility of reforming a religion that presently seems, in part, to be out of rational control and threatening to make a large section of the world a living hell for the people there, and a continuous threat to neighbours and further. It's not about the political ideology of communist Russia and how that was opposed.
Keyplus, I don't go with your conspiracy theories but if you want to question the writer you can contact her here.
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Keyplus - "Islam has already been reformed..."
No it hasn't.
How do I know this? Because of you Keyplus.
A couple of weeks ago you claimed to be a "moderate" muslim. You specifically used the word "moderate". However, as I have stated before, you have on a number of occasions, advocated the following:
1. the abolition of democracy;
2. the imposition of sharia law on the whole of the UK population;
3. threats of violence to anyone who opposes your views;
4. rejection of observable science over religious dogma;
5. the marriage of little girls to grown men;
6. chopping off of the hands of thieves as punishment for their crime.
Please explain to us all Keyplus how *your* above list can be described in any way as being "moderate".
No it hasn't.
How do I know this? Because of you Keyplus.
A couple of weeks ago you claimed to be a "moderate" muslim. You specifically used the word "moderate". However, as I have stated before, you have on a number of occasions, advocated the following:
1. the abolition of democracy;
2. the imposition of sharia law on the whole of the UK population;
3. threats of violence to anyone who opposes your views;
4. rejection of observable science over religious dogma;
5. the marriage of little girls to grown men;
6. chopping off of the hands of thieves as punishment for their crime.
Please explain to us all Keyplus how *your* above list can be described in any way as being "moderate".
Keyplus - "... Why all of a sudden West needs a reformed Islam..."
Because the Koran has passages like this:
"Fight against them [the unbelievers of Islam] so that Allah will punish them by your hands and disgrace them and give you victory over them and heal the breasts of a believing people" [Koran (9:14)]
"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." [Koran (9:29)]
"The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified..." [Koran (5:33)]
The fact is Keyplus, the Koran is filled with hated for people who do not consider Allah to be their god. It instructs muslims to either kill or make slaves of the unbelievers. It instructs muslims to lie to the unbelievers in order to further Islam. It instructs muslims to take over countries and install Sharia law by force.
The list of reasons why non-muslims need Islam to reform is almost endless.
Because the Koran has passages like this:
"Fight against them [the unbelievers of Islam] so that Allah will punish them by your hands and disgrace them and give you victory over them and heal the breasts of a believing people" [Koran (9:14)]
"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." [Koran (9:29)]
"The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified..." [Koran (5:33)]
The fact is Keyplus, the Koran is filled with hated for people who do not consider Allah to be their god. It instructs muslims to either kill or make slaves of the unbelievers. It instructs muslims to lie to the unbelievers in order to further Islam. It instructs muslims to take over countries and install Sharia law by force.
The list of reasons why non-muslims need Islam to reform is almost endless.
Keyplus - "... Still there is time that America and a few other countries should stop their dreams of controlling the world at any cost..."
Don't be so ridiculous.
As you very well know, the Koran specifically instructs muslims that the ultimate goal of Islam is complete world domination. For you to accuse others of the same is breathtaking.
The countries you speak of want democracy, freedom of speech, freedom of religion and freedom of thought. They want civil liberties. They want tolerance and peace - true peace - not the "peace" espoused in the Koran which tantamounts to totalitarian dictatorship.
Don't be so ridiculous.
As you very well know, the Koran specifically instructs muslims that the ultimate goal of Islam is complete world domination. For you to accuse others of the same is breathtaking.
The countries you speak of want democracy, freedom of speech, freedom of religion and freedom of thought. They want civil liberties. They want tolerance and peace - true peace - not the "peace" espoused in the Koran which tantamounts to totalitarian dictatorship.
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